[ SECRET POST #1848 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1848 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.



__________________________________________________

02.


__________________________________________________

03.


__________________________________________________

04.


__________________________________________________

05.


__________________________________________________

06.


__________________________________________________

07.


__________________________________________________

08.


__________________________________________________

09.


__________________________________________________

10.


__________________________________________________

11.


__________________________________________________

12.


__________________________________________________

13.


__________________________________________________

14.


__________________________________________________

15.


__________________________________________________

16.


__________________________________________________

17.


__________________________________________________

18.


__________________________________________________

19.


__________________________________________________

20.



Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 63 secrets from Secret Submission Post #264.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Hey, OP. I despise Twilight with every fiber of my being, genuinely think the books are problematic when they're marketed to young girls who haven't been taught the dangers of abusive behavior yet, and personally find all the 'romantic' stuff in it facepalmingly lame, but I'd just like to apologize for the disgustingly condescending, patronizing, and, yes, sexist assholes on this thread telling you that you're not allowed to like the things you like. That you must be some deluded pathetic girl who genuinely believes that this is a perfect ideal relationship instead of understanding that you just enjoy the OTT romantic fluff bits and are *gasp!* mature enough to compartmentalize and enjoy that romantic fluff without being convinced the problematic elements of the story are somehow romantic too.

IMO? Misogyny. People, (even women, sadly), tend to knee-jerk believe that girls don't have the perspective or soundness of mind to judge this stuff accurately. If a male OP was talking about how attracted he was to some dangerous but alluring insane bitch character in some male-oriented escapism, they'd all take it for granted that he knows she's a bitch and just thinks she's hot and the stuff she does is sexy. He wouldn't even need to put up a disclaimer saying that he understands the arguments for why people in the fandom hate the character. A male's mind is strong enough to not be contaminated by the impulses of his dick. But women? Noooooo, women are apparently all vacillating airheads whose poor feeble little minds can be twisted into that of a brainwashed cult member by the mere description of a sparkling muscular chest, and aren't allowed to enjoy the things that other people decide they shouldn't like.

Think about that: they're saying that you're not allowed to like what they've decided you shouldn't like. That's suffocating, double-binding, sexist cultural oppression 101. I am utterly disgusted. Fuck them, OP. Just fuck them and don't let them get to you. You're allowed to like ANYTHING you want. As long as you hold onto your perspective that it's just fun escapist fantasy, indulge your love for romantic mush all the fuck you want. Because you're obviously a mature and intelligent girl who gets the difference between harmless fantasy and hard reality, which should be the default assumption, but sadly isn't.

[(Anonymous)]

+1 to infinity

[dangerousdame.livejournal.com]

I love you.

[meilibi.livejournal.com]

This. Also, this reminds me of the discussion threads on rape fantasy where everyone is A-OK with having harmless fantasies separate from dark realities. Apparently that's only when Twilight isn't involved.

[checkerblob.livejournal.com]

This comment is fucking awesome and so are you :D
But yeah, these are my feelings exactly, and I wish I could express them that eloquently.

[vivi314.livejournal.com]

this is an awesome comment and you should feel awesome

[(Anonymous)]

Freaking THIS. Thank you! OP made it clear that she understands the problems and can enjoy it, anyway. She outright SAID that it's escapist fantasy. A LOT of people have fantasies about things that, if they really had to deal with them, would be incredibly stressful and draining or even traumatic. That doesn't make them idiots for enjoying the fantasy.

And I love you for your second paragraph. Just... seriously, THANK YOU. I get so sick of feeling like I have to defend myself for liking the characters I do. Okay, yes, I like this character who is controlling and does some questionable things like stalking and borderline-kidnapping. Yes, I think he's cute. Yes, when I'm with my other friends who like him, sometimes we even make jokes like, "He can kidnap me! <3" No, that doesn't mean I condone that kind of thing in real life, nor that I tolerate it from real people. It doesn't mean that if I found out someone was actually stalking me, I would be like, "Oooh, he's just like Character X! <3 I LOVE HIM AND HE LOVES ME AND WE'LL BE TOGETHER FOREVER AND HAVE CUTE BABIES AND LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER!!" So stop treating me like an idiot for liking him!

/rant

[fearless-rabbit.livejournal.com]

THIS.

Thinking Edward Cullen's behavior is okay for a real life partner is not ok, but thinking Edward Cullen as a fictional character is appealing is not the same thing.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Completely agreed. Something about the thread before your comment was making me uncomfortable and it was pretty much this. People are able to compartmentalize and selectively ignore when it comes to fantasy.

The only thing I'll defend is people taking issue with Twilight "not promoting abusive relationships" as OP said. I think it does promote them. But that doesn't mean people are wrong for liking it while recognizing its problems and not condoning it in real life.

[meadowphoenix]

L O L.

If a male OP was talking about how attracted he was to some dangerous but alluring insane bitch character in some male-oriented escapism, they'd all take it for granted that he knows she's a bitch and just thinks she's hot and the stuff she does is sexy

I find it ridiculously hilarious that you decided people were making such offensive stereotypes that the only way to show them they were wrong was to make another over-generalized stereotype.

Here's the thing. People aren't telling her what to like; they're telling her that she's dumb for liking them. And as rude as that is, it's perfectly within their rights to say so. That's not actually sexist (just judgmental). Your response however is, considering that you asserted as if fact that people would behave differently if it were a male (I'll go with you ignoring that fact that women like that are rarely in male escapist fantasies, unless the male is equally powerful. And that when women like that are in the media, they are implicitly or explicitly deigned as psycho). The receipts, please?

Secondly, her secret is pretty equivocal. She says she's read the criticism and thinks abusive behaviors aren't okay. She never says she thinks the behaviors evidenced in Twilight are abusive. To me, she pretty much says, saying they're abusive is taking it much too seriously. She ignores the fact that something can be subjectively romantic, while still being objectively abusive. I do in fact find that kind of thinking dumb and very much missing the point.

Furthermore, I don't think that people are saying escapist fantasies like Twilight will 100% turn in to abusive relationships in real life. I think people are aware however, that while you might not measure up everyone you meet to your fantasy, if given the chance to have it, the majority of people will take it and get so wrapped up in it, they will ignore warning signs, male or female. There also the issue of how there is societal pressure to conform to your gender. When so many girls like Twilight, you're going to have other girls trying to like it too, so that they can relate. If they don't like it, they're likely to wonder if they should like it. This wouldn't be an issue if Twlight-esque escapist fantasies weren't 50 times are prevalent as other escapist fantasies from a female perspective. Twilight came out before the Hunger Games series, and up until that point, there were very few Hunger Game like books anywhere near the popularity of Twilight. Seeing Twilight as an sign of our culture isn't unfounded.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you.
Even better, this stuff happens on almost every Twilight secret, yet on rape secrets people are mostly like "well, it's just your fantasy! You can't help it being turned on by rape scenarios" but as soon someone admits to liking Twilight everyone is like "wow, you need to get help, don't you know it's wrong and creepy to like stuff like this?"

All the Twilight fans I know IRL (three of them) would never allow their boyfriends to act like an Edward. WTF.
I know that one of them even roleplayed with her BF that she was the vampire and he was a male "Bella".

[visp.livejournal.com]

No one is calling her out for liking it. They're calling her out for saying "Yes, domestic abuse is bad, but I don't see anything wrong with how his behavior is portrayed."

[micromyni.livejournal.com]

I want you for president.

[checkerblob.livejournal.com]

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Grow up, you stupid bitch.

[(Anonymous)]

Learn some manners, then come back and contribute in a constructive way. Otherwise, fuck off.

[flutingfrenzy.livejournal.com]

I wonder, though, whether that hypothetical example really is comparable. Would the "insane bitch" character not be portrayed as an antihero at best, and probably get her comeuppance in the end, rather than having the male hero fall in schmoopy love with her forever? Also, would she do things that specifically ping people's creepy/abusive radar, as opposed to standard action villain stuff? I know these questions sound rhetorical, but I'm seriously asking.

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

Not only that, but "insane bitch" is hardly shown in media and other cultural expressions as the ultimate example of romantic love. Men around the world are not abused by "insane bitches" and when they are, they encounter sympathy. Women are shown that possessive, crazy stalkers are examples of good boyfriends if they bring you flowers later. And I don't know in the US, but in my country abuse is a huge problem for women and it has only been recognised recently. So yeah, I don't think the comparison stands.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

I wasn't really comparing the two phenomenon as "shown in media". I certainly don't think they're comparable when you relate them to real life. I was simply pointing out that men are assumed to be able to understand the difference between fantasy and reality, yet women are apparently morons who, if they're attracted to a character who happens to be crappily-written and abusive, MUST think that abusive boyfriends are great to have in real life. Because, you know, women's only sexual desires are having relationships and making babies, so if they think a male character is sexy, of course they must want him to be their husband! Which is ridiculous and insulting. I already said in my first comment that I do think the abusive elements of the book are problematic -- for young girls who actually don't know better and may not really see the problems with the character. Mature teen girls and adults who read them as escapist guilty pleasures do know better, and it's disgusting to tell them that they're a bad person for enjoying their little fantasy.

I think you kind of pointed out the problem yourself -- dangerous fictional women are usually portrayed as bad, but equally dangerous fictional men aren't. That's a sexist and crappy state of affairs that annoys me because it's so divorced from reality, and I wouldn't want young, immature girls exposed to it. But it does not mean grown women are so stupid and gullible that they can't tell for themselves that a dangerous fictional man isn't someone they would want as a boyfriend in real life, regardless of how the author portrays his behavior.

[lovelycudy.livejournal.com]

I don't assume women are stupid for believing that abusive models of relationships are good. But, to be honest, I've seen a large amount of Twilight fans (as we are talking about this series in particular) who see nothing wrong with the way relationships are portrayed in the books. I rarely see people saying "well, this is wrong, but it's my kink" -which is fine and I agree- but I see a lot of people saying "he was only protecting her! He loves her so much that he can't be without her!" which, imho, is not healthy at all.

Someone mentioned Spike/Buffy somewhere in this thread. I think there are differences: they had a mutually abusive relationship -and I think Buffy had more power than Spike- up to the rape attempt. But, trough all the arc, the show acknowledge that relationship as fucked up and people who, like me, like it, like it for the wrongness, while being aware that behaviour like that doesn't fly in real life.

[(Anonymous)]

You are a fucking idiot.

[green-glee.livejournal.com]

<3

[tiger-pause.livejournal.com]

I love this comment.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for saying this, it's definitely an angle that needs to be considered in this discussion.