fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1895 ]

[ SECRET POST #1895 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1895 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 147 secrets from Secret Submission Post #271.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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Who was I a jerkass to? I'm sorry. Am I obligated to like everything that other people like in order to have "basic human decency"? I must have missed that section in the How to Be a Human handbook. :(

Seriously though. I never said I hated people who ship SanSan. Because I don't.

I just hate the ship.

How does that make me a bad person? If you can't handle someone hating something you like then... I'm sorry, but I don't know what to tell you.

Did you miss the part where I don't ship SanSan? I'm just so sick of the ship hate in this fandom. Nobody's asking you to ship SanSan. But commenting on someone's secret to tell them that their ship is "the worst"? That's pretty aggressive and unnecessary and it's something that happens too often in this fandom. There's a difference between "I don't like this ship" and "this ship is the worst" because the latter implies that people must be pretty stupid or creepy or weird to ship it. I've seen you say similar things in other threads and communities, apparently you do that a lot.

There are many ships I hate in this fandom. I don't find SanSan interesting and naturally I wish there were more fics about the pairings I like. But I don't feel the need to tell shippers how much their ships suck because that's what makes the atmosphere in this fandom so unpleasant. Someone says they ship something and someone else immediately jumps at them to say "your ship is the worst!" Can't you just say that you don't like a ship without bashing the pairing?

I speak in Internet hyperbole a lot. So... idk. Sorry that I didn't phrase my dislike in a calm and neutral manner?

And really, no. People disliking ships is not what makes ASOIAF an unpleasant fandom. The racism and misogyny is what makes it an unpleasant fandom.

So what you're saying is that because there is racism and misogyny it's okay be a dick about everything else? The problem is that even in the parts of fandom that are very aware of issues like racism and misogyny ship-bashing still happens a lot. Of course that's not a big social issue and certainly less important in general, but it still makes fandom unnecessarily unpleasant for a lot of people. I've seen hate for almost any ship in this fandom just because people think it's okay to go on about how this or that ship sucks, how could anyone possibly ship that... It makes people feel unwelcome, especially new fans, fans who don't know anyone in this fandom yet or fans of rare pairings.

I can say it again, this is not about disliking ships. Everybody dislikes ships. This is about bashing ships you don't like and making people feel like they should be ashamed of their ships.

I'm sorry if you were just speaking in hyperbol and think that I am overreacting, but you might want to consider doing that a bit less in public communities where people who don't know you and your love for hyperbole will read it. It doesn't come across as funny or whatever it's supposed to be, but as aggressive and condescending.

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Here's the thing though. Hating on a ship? Not personal. I never said that someone should be ashamed of their ship. I could have gone into detail as to why I hate the ship and think that it is gross, but I didn't. I just said that it was the worst. That is NOT personal and if someone likes the ship they really should be able to let that roll of their back or engage me about it if they want to know why I think that.

Saying that I am a jerkass and lack basic human decency? THAT is personal, and I think that makes you the jerkass and not me.

You really don't want to understand what I'm saying, do you? Behavior like yours makes people in fandom feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I've heard fans of different ships complain about this. It doesn't make them any less uncomfortable just because you're not being racist or sexist about it.

I agree, saying a ship is the worst is not even half as offensive or personal as attacking the shippers. But you didn't just say that you, individually, do not like this ship. You said it is the worst, which is a generalizing statement. It's like the difference between saying that you don't like a character and saying that this character is the worst person in the series. One is your opinion. Is that so hard to understand?

I wouldn't be a jerkass about this if it was one isolated comment, but it's something that happens all the time. I don't even know why you would feel the urge to comment on a secret just to tell someone you hate their ship. What makes you think that this is a necessary comment to make? What's the point of a comment like that?

On one level, I do get what you are saying. But I also don't think fandom is about being a circle jerk. In my own private spaces, sure. I tend to keep to people who agree with me. But this is a general space. And if you put forward an opinion about a ship that is VERY problematic, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be clutching your pearls that someone expresses a dislike for that ship.

Me saying something is the worst does not mean it is an objective fact. I wasn't aware that I had to preface everything I said with "In my opinion". I thought it was pretty obvious that it was just my personal opinion. Look, saying something is "the worst" is pretty common internet dialect. Same with saying something is "flawless". It is not fact and it is not literal.

As for what was the point of the comment? Expressing myself because why not?

Actually I think it's public spaces where we should be most considerate. It's one thing to talk about how much you hate a ship on your own journal or when you're talking to like-minded friends, but I don't see the point of hating on ships or characters in public communities where there are people who may like that ship. it's different if people are having a discussion and you explain why you think a certain ship is problematic or why you don't like it, but just telling people that you hate their ship? Do you also tag hate posts on tumblr, just to make sure the fans see a post that only says "I hate this character"?

I know you weren't being literal. People aren't being literal either when they call Catelyn (I'm saying Catelyn because she's on your icon and I assume you like her) the worst person in the series. They're also being hyperbolic in their expression of their dislike for her. I'm pretty sure you still wouldn't be happy if you made a post about how much you like Catelyn and someone commented to say nothing but "CATELYN IS THE WORST". I know that I, as a Catelyn fan myself, would think that's an unnecessary comment.

I always see people complaining about how unpleasant this fandom is, about how unfriendly everyone is to each other, but every time someone gets called out on their behavior they just become defensive. You're right that ship bashing is not the biggest problem in this fandom. But I do think that this fandom would be more enjoyable for everyone if people - not just you, but everyone - could just resist the urge to reply to a post that says 'I like this character/ship' with 'that character/ship is the worst'.

This is a GENERAL community. It is in no way similar to tagging hate on tumblr. When you do that you are specifically putting it in the line of sight of fans of that character.

And if I saw someone saying that Catelyn was the worst, I'd probably say "LOL NOPE." And if they wanted to get more specific about why, I would engage them in a discussion. Catelyn gets enough hate everywhere. I'm used to it.

Also this secret wasn't just saying "I like this character/ship". It was saying that the secret maker fantasizes about Sansa losing her virginity to Sandor. I could just say nothing. But firstly, I find people's obsession with Sansa's virginity to be super creepy, and secondly, I think it's an incredibly problematic relationship. I could just say nothing to keep the peace. I concede that I could have voiced my distaste in a less over the top manner. But I didn't. And the fact that I didn't doesn't warrant you calling me a jerkass and saying I lack basic human decency. Like, REALLY. Come on. Stop making me out to be this terrible person when you were the one who turned it into a personal attack.

It's a general community, but you were replying to a secret made by a fan of this ship. Who do you think will read these comments? Probably other people who are interested in that ship, no? So you are putting your comment in the line of sight of these fans.

I suppose it says a lot about this fandom that we're so used to character bashing that people don't think it's a problem anymore. I have seen lots of Catelyn hate, but I still wish people would stop doing it. I imagine fans of other characters, even characters I hate, feel the same.

Then say that. Say that you find people's obsession with Sansa's virginity creepy. Say that you think it's a problematic relationship and why. Or don't say anything if you don't feel like having an actual conversation about the pairing. But just saying "this pairing sucks" is a completely pointless comment. Yes, I overreacted by calling you a jerkass, but I am so very sick of this behavior in this fandom. And to be fair, I called you that when you reacted to my initial comment that ship bashing is not okay with a snarky "yeah I totally feel good about myself" rather than with an actual reply to what I said.

And I think we've both made our point clear and don't need to drag this out even further. I just really wish you'd stop being defensive and consider that maybe, next time you feel like writing a comment like that, you shouldn't. And I'll call people out on their behavior without calling them a jerkass next time.

In general people should ship and let ship, but when you know you're dealing with a problematic ship what do you really expect? There are some gross dynamics in plenty of ASOIAF ships, and I totally ship some of them. But if someone calls it (not me, but the ship) "the worst", it makes all the sense in the world to me and I don't get bent out of shape about it because I get why it would gross them out.

Oh get off your fake!nice high horse! SanSan has perfectly valid reasons for disliking it, namely pedophilia, misogyny and glorifying of abusive relationships. You don't get to take the high ground by saying "but everybody should be nice, so you're not allowed to find these things objectionable if it's in some way related to a ship!" It doesn't make you the open-minded spreader of tolerance you seem to think you are; it makes you an apologist for pedophilia, misogyny and abusive relationships.

Sandor's no more of a pedophile than Tyrion is.

Nice calling Sansan fans apologists for "pedophilia, misogyny and abusive relationships", though.

Sandor's no more of a pedophile than Tyrion is.

Well, at least Tyrion is aware that it's kinda fucked up, and Sansa is a year or two older than when Sandor's interest started, but so what? Do the two of them cancel each other out or something?

So, uh, would Sophie Turner be an apologist for pedophilia and misogony as she's a Sansan shipper herself?

I think she would just be fifteen.

I have no idea. If she shows up here on the board to confirm that she is and explain why, I'll tell you what I think of it.

Don't dodge the question. If she ships Sansan (and it's pretty clear that she does given her comments elsewhere) is she, in your eyes, an apologist for pedophilia and misogyny herself?

I wasn't dodging, I was giving an honest answer. If you really want my thoughts on it, link to the quote of what she said.

She hasn't explained why she likes Sansan, she's just indicated that she does. She even gave a shout-out to "Sansan lovers" (her words) in her DVD commentary.

So again...does that make her a pedophila/abusive relationship apologist for shipping them?

And again, it's like you're trying your hardest not to give me enough info on this, but given what you said, I'd say it makes her a 15-year-old who's giving a shout-out to her fans. Face it, SanSan shippers are sorta her main fanbase, so she's not going to alienate them. So yeah, a few things wrong with it, but again, at 15, I'm not expecting the full Robert Patterson-levels of awareness and I perfectly understand playing to her fanbase.

Also, it's entirely possible that she just means that she likes the actual dynamic of their relationship, because, as an actress, she finds it nuanced and interesting and far more complex than most anything else she'd be portraying on TV at her age.

And you seem trying your hardest not to answer the question. If Sophie is a fan of Sansan, does that make her an apologist for pedophilia, misogyny or abusive relationships? Yes or no?

Sophie also posted this on Facebook.

I answered the question in 2 paragraphs in the last post! You can't keep trying to get the answer you want by ignoring the answers I give.

But again, and with even more explaining:

No, if:
She just means that she likes the actual dynamic of their relationship, especially because, as an actress, she finds it nuanced and interesting and far more complex than most anything else she'd be portraying on TV at her age.

She's just saying that she likes working with that actor

if by "giving a shout-out to SanSan" she's just essentially saying hi to her fans.

Yes, but she's 15, so I don't judge her by adult standards of "what a person should understand" if:

She's actually said that she's read the books and thinks that the whole "they're so romantic together" idea is cool. (You have shown me no actual proof of this, btw, so I'm not saying this is what she believes.)

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From George himself:

"They [medieval people] didn’t have this concept of adolescence or the teenage years. You were a child or you were an adult. And the onset of sexual maturity meant you were an adult. So I reflected that in the books."

http://geekygirlslovescifi.blogspot.com/2011/07/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin.html

Age of consent (marrying age) 800 years ago was 12.

In the context of the series and the world that it's set in, he's not a pedophile. Neither are any of Dany's potential suitors, or Tyrion for wanting to bed Sansa for that matter.

Yeah, but Tyrion actually points it out, on his wedding night with Sansa. I don't have the exact point, but he's like "you're really still more of a child, aren't you?"

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