[ SECRET POST #2037 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2037 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 067 secrets from Secret Submission Post #291.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I completely understand, anon. A lot of people here are misunderstanding your point, but I get it.

It's a basic fact of society that men who are not conventionally attractive are given much, much, MUCH more leeway than women who are not conventionally attractive. Men who aren't conventionally attractive are usually given the benefit of the doubt, people will get to know them anyway, and so on, while women who aren't conventionally attractive are so often reduced to their appearance alone ("the fat girl," "the girl with the scar on her face," etc.) and ostracized and isolated for it.

I wish I could help you, OP, but the only advice I have is to keep trying. There ARE people out there who will find you attractive just as you are, and love you for the person you are inside. I promise you that. Sometimes it just takes a lot of time to weed out the jerks who judge people by looks alone. Good luck.

[threeonetwo]

That and what makes a woman "unattractive" by conventional standards is WAY smaller than it is for men. All it takes is not putting on enough make-up for it to be noticeable, wearing glasses that aren't "chic", and wearing clothes that fit properly but--GASP--don't show off your figure. Decide to throw on some sweats one day because you're just running a few errands and hey you did bathe so that's what's important, and bam, you are officially an "ugly" woman for the day. Meanwhile, if an average/attractive man were to throw on some sweats for the same reasons, he's not ugly for the day, he's just a hot guy who wants to be comfortable and practical for the day. It's ridiculous.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, it might just be me not being tuned in at all into expectations when it comes to looks but my experience is vastly different from yours.

I never wear makeup unless I go to a party and even then it's just eyeliner, I have flawed skin and I've never covered that up, I normally just run around in jeans and a shirt. I'm overweight (though not overly so) and I go out in sweats, including ridiculous outfits when I go for a run.

I never had any bad experience with it, people still flirt with me even though I'm only in a shirt and jeans that I owned for over two years.

It's all about how comfortable you feel in your own skin. Sure if you reek or if you look unclean people probably won't want to fuck you. But otherwise it's also always a matter of self-confidence and how you interact with people.

I have a friend who always wonders why no one will talk to her at parties. The reason isn't that she doesn't look good but she stand around, clutching her jacket or arms crossed in front of her and giving of an air of "don't talk to me!"

Also, how do you know people think you're ugly? As far as I'm aware most people who you'd actually want anything to do with don't run around judging everyone who doesn't look perfect. You don't know what other people think but you ascribe how you see to self to other people. Which is kind of stupid.

And don't even get me started on how men don't have it that much better than we women.

[(Anonymous)]

da

Do you know how I know people think I'm ugly?

Because women who look like me are ostracized and discriminated against.

Because women who look like me are trashed online, in magazines, on the television, on the internet. Literally everywhere. (Welcome to the experience of the fat woman.)

Because people outright tell me, "I'm glad I don't look like you" (a supposed "friend" told me that one), "damn you're ugly," "you've got a nice personality, shame about your body," "if you'd only lose weight/wear more makeup/get surgery/etc. people would love you!" (Who said that last one? My mother.)

I don't reek. I take care of myself. I wear cute clothes, sometimes a little makeup, do my hair nicely, I'm not afraid to talk to people, I'm friendly and very polite.

This is a common experience for women. I would imagine you're probably quite conventionally attractive (having "flawed skin" and wearing t-shirts and jeans doesn't make you "ugly" or not conventionally attractive), hence your experiences. Very conventionally attractive women have different experiences from women who aren't conventionally attractive.

And no, men do not in any way have it as bad as women do. Men get a metric fuckton of leeway in what it means to be conventionally attractive. Conventionally attractive men can be fat, they can be thin, they can be muscular, they can be svelte, they can have facial hair, they can be shaved, they can have any kind of hair, they can wear makeup, they can never wear makeup, they can have poor skin, they can have callouses, they can have any skin color, they can have any kind of face shape, etc. etc. They get a fuckton of leeway with regards to personality and attitude, too. Don't you even think of going on about oh the poor mens, because it'll be a lot of lies.

[lori-hu.livejournal.com]

I believe Family Guy's Peter Griffin summed it up as follows: "Lois, men aren't fat. Only fat women are fat." And fat, for a woman, is practically skeletal.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Sounds about right, yeah. Ugh, don't even get me started on beauty standards for women, especially what is and isn't considered "fat." I could go on forever about how horrible it all is.

[anonymouslyyours]

A-fucking-men! Also I'm really sorry you have to deal with this. This thread and all of it. I hope something really good happens to you. *hugs*

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Thank you so much. *hugs!* I have a beautiful, amazing girlfriend now, but I dealt with this kind of shit for so many years before I realized I was gay, and still deal with a lot of it (especially the lingering feelings of not being good enough, feeling ugly, unwanted, etc.), and it can be incredibly upsetting. Gotta work on chilling out now. Thanks again. <3

[anonymouslyyours]

It's great to hear something great already happened to you! I wish only good things continue as well!

I went through an ugly little phase where I tried to compensate for my sexual orientation behaving and dressing more feminine. Of course now that I'm comfortable in my own skin I get way more compliments, and now usually even from the "right" people.

[threeonetwo]

I was talking about how media and society generally expect women to get all dressed up like they're going on a date all the time, nothing to do with reeking or looking unclean. One former coworker had our boss complain to her that she never wore makeup. Our workplace? A dog grooming shop, where she spent the entire day scrubbing poop out of fur and getting soaked, slobbered on, and plenty of other things. Whether she wore makeup outside of work should have been her business and no one else's(she would frequently talk about her favorite brands on breaks so I assume she did), but apparently being in the back where no one will see you with a dress code of "something comfortable that you don't mind getting dirty and for the love of god don't wear nice shoes" means omg, put some concealer on, ew! Meanwhile, of of the guys who worked there would normally show up looking like he just rolled out of bed and headed to work was totally fine even if his hair hadn't been washed in forever and he kind of smelled.

And how do I know people think I'm ugly? Uh, let's see, personal experience? Being laughed at and having nasty comments directed at me no matter how nice I try to look? Having that shit thrown at me constantly since I was a child, even by adult caretakers? There are plenty of ways I know. You're either conventionally attractive or at least average, or you live in a seriously lax area when it comes to what's expected of women.

[velvet_mace]

Are you trying to date fashion models or something?

The guys I know aren't nearly that picky. My then boyfriend, now husband told me on our first date (which by the way, I asked him on, he said yes) that he didn't like make up (it tastes nasty). So I stopped wearing it (quite happily). And I haven't been given slack over it. I did, however, make sure my face is clean, brows are tamed, my hair and teeth are brushed, my breath smells good, my deodorant is on, my acne treated, my clothes clean, flattering to my body type, and aren't too bizarre. I may not be wearing make up or super fashionable glasses, but I am caring for my appearance.

Just, try not to make the most dominent part of your personality be "I don't really give a fuck what you think of me." Because, why would he want to date a woman who doesn't care or feels entitled to his attraction when she's not doing anything to earn it. Once you have a boyfriend long enough to reach the comfortable stage, you can wear your sweats and he'll start wearing his comfortably unflattering clothes around you.

[(Anonymous)]

da

So basically "make sure you spend sixteen hours on your appearance every day in order to conform to patriarchal beauty standards, don't dress how you want to, make sure you do everything to be attractive to men, and MAYBE you'll get a date! omg super easy!"

You're privileged, and you're being terribly sexist and completely awful here. Please fuck off.

[(Anonymous)]

Try reading that comment again. It doesn't suggest a sixteen-hour super-privileged sexist beauty ritual, it describes good hygiene and basic neatness--no less than what anyone should do for a job interview. It also suggests that if that's not enough for your prospective date, they may not be the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.

[insanenoodlyguy]

WAHHHHHHHHH

I DON'T LIKE THAT YOU ARE HAPPIER THEN ME, YOU PRIVILEGED POS. STOP HAVING DECENT ADVICE THAT DOESN'T AFFIRM MY BULLSHIT WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

CRY SOME MOAR

[velvet_mace]

I don't think you know what any of those words mean.

[(Anonymous)]

um, sorry, but i expect a guy to do the same (not your exaggerated version, but previous anon's). i'm not dating a guy who doesn't care about his appearance. it's not a patriarchal standard.

[gobbledigook]

Thanks for granting us with the great knowledge of hygiene, patriarchal society!

[insanenoodlyguy]

Thing is, like 90% of what you said is more hygene then anything. The fact it corresponds to appearance is certainly not a coincidence, but I do hope if only for health reasons know to do the basics for themselves if nothing else.

[velvet_mace]

I've met a lot of nerds of both genders who weren't really clear on the importance of hygiene. Believe me, some of the people at cons really need to be told to floss.

[insanenoodlyguy]

Sadly, your not wrong there.

[threeonetwo]

No, I was talking about the expectations media sets for society. I should have made that more clear. Also, personal experience from years of being bullied by my peers for reasons such as not having a perfect complexion even when using "tried and true" acne medication, being told I smell like shit despite bathing every day and taking extra care to NOT smell, and oh, being picked on by adults for having the figure of a young teen instead of an average woman my age when trying to get a job also colors my viewpoint.

I really wish I was making up that last one. If I had a dollar for every time I've gone somewhere for an interview/dropping off a resume professionally dressed and gotten a snort of derision and a snide "You look like you're 14" even after explaining that I'm well beyond that, I would be set for life.

My point is, keeping good hygiene(which I do) doesn't guarantee that people are going to treat you like a human being in the dating world or any other aspects of the real world. As other people have said, almost everything you mentioned is a matter of keeping good hygiene, which isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about not getting all dressed up like you're going on a date on every single occasion in your day-to-day life, which men can get away with far more easily than women. Also, I don't want a boyfriend, but the point still stands.

[(Anonymous)]

It doesn't help that when a woman doesn't meet certain standards of appearance, some people act downright offended by it.

One of my all-time favorite Savage Love columns was from a few years ago when a young woman wrote in saying she was very unattractive and that men gave her a lot of crap for this. They wouldn't just pass her by or turn her down, they'd actually stop and make an effort to make her feel bad about it. Dan responded that some men are raised to believe women exist for their own pleasure and therefore they will take it as a personal insult when a woman doesn't please them with how she looks, even if she's just some random person on the street.

I read that and thought, "Holy crap, that explains a lot!" I consider myself attractive, but I do sometimes detect that undercurrent of anger (whether directed at myself or another woman) and it can be over something as minor and temporary as having a bad hair day or being unsure how to dress for an event and winding up looking too casual (read: frumpy) compared to everyone else.

Obviously, not all guys are like this, but it happens, and what's worse is that I see women behaving similarly towards other women. Whether that's more likely an issue of needing someone to compare themselves to favorably or simple rejection of anything that doesn't strictly adhere to social expectations, I don't know. Probably a bit of both.

[(Anonymous)]

i'm actually really bothered by the fact that both genders don't look cuter more of the time. i almost won't date a guy who wears t-shirts and shorts/jeans routinely (i say almost because if he's an amazing person i'm not going to pass him up)