[ SECRET POST #2088 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2088 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 021 secrets from Secret Submission Post #298.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

While I don't judge people for writing mainly main casts, I do think the OP has...somewhat of a point. I see all these books where all the major characters are male and there is absolutely no reason for why one of them couldn't be female.

That's one thing I liked about the Hunger Games. Many female characters took on "traditionally male" roles. I wish I could see more of that. Obviously, if you're writing a historical piece, it's a bit more difficult to integrate female characters in the "exciting stuff", but I see no reason why this can't be the case in future and dystopian novels.

[(Anonymous)]

Somewhat of one, but definitely not as much of one as they think. Outside of fantasy, gender is a big deal because it matters and in a vast majority of non-fantasy settings, it would affect how other characters, people, and the world treat the character, or whether they would be in the situation you want to write about in the first place.

So you're writing a story about draftees in WWII. Or about the NBA. Or about a boy band. How would you shoehorn 50% women into there?

It's like saying "if half your characters aren't black, you're not helping represent black people, no matter what the story is about." And you know what? If I'm writing a story set in Japan during the imperialist era, not having 50% black characters in the story isn't being racist, it's being realistic.

[(Anonymous)]

If I'm writing a story set in Japan during the imperialist era, not having 50% black characters in the story isn't being racist, it's being realistic.

This is what I say every time someone whines that there isn't enough gay/POC/women/whatever the fuck in X. You know what? Some creators care about realism. If you're in the US, you aren't going to have a half black cast outside of a few areas. Unless you're writing about a place with an active gay community, one out of every three characters isn't going to be gay. There's a version of The Three Musketeers that gives d'Artagnan a 21st century heroine sister. In context, these things don't make sense. It's not about erasure or whatever- it's about what fits.

[(Anonymous)]

""It's like saying "if half your characters aren't black, you're not helping represent black people, no matter what the story is about." And you know what? If I'm writing a story set in Japan during the imperialist era, not having 50% black characters in the story isn't being racist, it's being realistic.""

This!! So much this!

Thank you!

[(Anonymous)]

at the same time, it's worth considering why most stories are set in the time periods/regions that favor leaving out POC and women and LGBT characters. yes, it would be realistic not to have many POC in a story about medieval scotland, and it would not be realistic to have many white people in a story about tribes in south africa. one gets written and re-written a lot more often than the other. and that's not just "chance."

[(Anonymous)]

Because they find those periods and regions interesting? And aren't really thinking about gender/race/sexuality?

I mean, I'm fascinated by the medieval era. It's definitely a time period that I would NOT want to live in, but I'm still interested in it. I can't exactly deny that this may be due to another interest that it's often paired up with - the fantasy genre. Somehow, knights and dragons just seem to go together.

[(Anonymous)]

This is true, but it swings both ways. Often "erasure" is unrealistic.

Take like ... well, a lot of cop dramas on BBC that have basically all white people. It's weird, when the show takes place in modern England. Because it's not realistic to have it all white people. And I think a lot of that results from plain old lazy writing - the creators of the new shows are in some ways, copying or paying homage to the classic mystery shows and movies, most of which were all white people. In some of the old movies, it made sense... in the new movies, no. I think this happens a lot in film. We recycle old archetypes even if they've changed since then. It's laziness more than racism imo but it's not great.

[maverickz3r0]

Or fantasy! I've read some fantasy novels where much or most (or nearly all) of the cast is female. Different world structure and all.

[(Anonymous)]

Writers should focus on writing the best stories they can. The last thing this world needs is more formulaic crap that reads as if it was written to fit an 'inclusivity checklist.'

If you want more works that involve female main characters, write a manuscript yourself and submit it for publication. If you don't want to, stop complaining and let writers do their jobs.

AYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. Way to misconstrue what I said.

All I said was that I think women should be equally represented in fiction. I never said that writers should adhere to an "inclusivity checklist." All I said was that I don't understand why, in many cases, so many novels default to having almost all male casts when many of the characters could also function as female.

Of course, there are definitely cases where this would not work. As another anon stated, you can't really have a female cast when you're writing about WWII draftees, the NBA, or a boy band.

AYRT (cont)

[(Anonymous)]

Also, having an all-male cast or an all-white cast can also read as unrealistic. It just depends how you execute it. If you write a book about an all boys school where the guys really only hang out with guys, then, yeah, that makes sense. But I remember reading a book about guys at a public school who only hung out with other guys. It just read as sloppy to me. None of the guys were wallflowers, so I didn't really understand why they never spoke to girls and had no female friends to speak of.

Same applies to an all-white cast. If you're writing about a mainly white setting, then, yeah, I get it. But some metropolis area full of people with different races? Yeah, then you're just being lazy and inaccurate.

Re: AYRT (cont)

[(Anonymous)]

Anon that mentioned the draftees scenario:

I agree with you, then. If you're going for something set in real-world, you should be realistic; even if female characters aren't significant main characters, having every single character be male in a public school, or every single person be white in an inner city setting, is unrealistic.

Though... what you're talking about is sloppy writing, and sloppy writing is bad for being sloppy, not inherently because it lacks female characters.

Re: AYRT (cont)

[(Anonymous)]

"Also, having an all-male cast or an all-white cast can also read as unrealistic."

So all-white is a problem but say...all-black isn't a problem?

How does that make sense, especially if the story has a fantasy setting.

[saku]

as a writer, my characters are really personal. i don't really "make" them, they just happen. they're them and they only change if they want to (like, only if it actually works; i'm not going to change something about them for a quota - or for any reason, really - unless it feels right).

i don't do it on purpose, i just happen to have a significant surplus of male characters. changing their gender is a big deal because that's not who they are. for some writers, myself included, that's a big reason for not making them female. they just aren't.

i like to think i write good, balanced characters without stereotyping. i don't want to sacrifice quality just because someone else thinks i need to turn one of my males into a female. i still have a lot of female characters but even if i didn't i'd be comfortable with what i've written because that's how my characters want to be.

[(Anonymous)]

As a writer, I kind of have to side-eye you a little. Sometimes characters have to change. Sometimes stories have to change. Sometimes they have to change drastically. Sometimes you need to consider a change, let it simmer for awhile and then come back a say "Yeah, you know what, that works". And in the end, the story is better for it.

[saku]

you're right! sometimes characters do change. but for me, it's their choice.

when i brainstorm stories or plots, characters just kind of come out of hiding in my head, like oh hey. they reveal themselves when they're good and ready, so i accept them as is.

my characters change all the time. i've had one of my girls change her name like 6 times now! i've had other characters change names too, and hair styles/colours and appearances as a whole. but this is only good if it works for them. i don't force things on my characters because if it's not just right, they become lackluster.

my point is that for some of us, changing something very important about a character, like their gender, doesn't always come easy. when you care about your characters and you give them ample consideration, it's not as simple as just going, hey, this person is a guy now. or sup you're female now. it's all about the quality of the writing and the character rather than, like i said, some quota you feel obligated to fulfill because some people judge you for not having 50% of your characters be female.

heck, i've had to change entire plots and premises before. i'm rewriting my first completed novel and there are only a few things that are the same (one of them being a mere name). i understand change and how good it is. i edit my works like crazy; most of my written pages have no margin space because they're so full of edits. so yeah, i get changing for the better. but changing things is something that should come naturally and wanted, by you and your characters (or, perhaps in your case, just you, since i'm probably the only weirdo who leaves it up to her characters).

all in all, my characters may be mine, but i let them decide who they are. if i think long and hard about a change and it's not right, then i'm not going to implement it.

i'm not quite sure what part of my first comment made you side-eye me since i made it really clear that changes are important. but characters are who they are. if you think you need more females so you genderswap a few but it just doesn't work, then i'm not going to judge. in my experience, of all the things my characters will change, gender is one of the least flexible attributes. and that's fine with me! i really don't think anybody else should get angry at me over my characters' identities. like i said, when you care about your characters, changes like that aren't always easy.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a writer as well, and I would never change any of my characters into something they are not.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, sometimes characters have to change. But fuck changing them according to somebody else's agenda.

[(Anonymous)]

If you keep finding deep from the subconscious that you write mostly men, well, it's good to ask yourself at least why that is so.

[saku]

well, most of my characters are male-bodied, but more or less androgynous - at least to some degree. it also has to do with settings and time periods and the like - i do have several characters of a variety of genders who are currently not in any of my works because they don't fit. sometimes in these cases i build plots around them, so it's easier to include anybody. other times i do plots first and then characters come to me. sometimes both happen at the same time.

my main work right now features a female as the main character and she's been consuming a lot of my creative juices lately, so most of my focus has been on her. come to think of it, i have a pretty good male-female-other ratio in most of my works, sans a few, but those few are male-dominated for plot purposes (ie. an all-boys gang).

regarding what kind of subconscious reasons could be behind the fact that i have more male characters than female - i'm personally trans, so it could be that my brain is defaulting to how it usually feels. gender is important to me because i'm trans so it might be on my mind more than it is for others.

[(Anonymous)]

...because it's what I enjoy writing.

Simple as that.

[(Anonymous)]

"write good female characters" =\= "ensure mathematical superiority for female representation in your casts or literally be a traitor to womankind" as any halfway rational person would realize, OP

[(Anonymous)]

Lol not OP. Seriously, fuck off.

I don't agree with the OP that anyone is a "traitor" for writing mainly male casts. I was just saying that I don't understand why there are so many novels where female characters are underrepresented when they could be involved with the plot.

[(Anonymous)]

Then read more YA fiction targeted at girls or anything by Anne McCaffrey. There's loads of stories with strong female protagonists.