[ SECRET POST #2105 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2105 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 107 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

12. http://i.imgur.com/seIKt.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

i think the problem is your belief people should be forced to do something just because you don't think something is good enough.

[(Anonymous)]

And how is that a problem?

[(Anonymous)]

Hyperbole fail.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you. Also--to a certain extent--I think a lot of authors need the bad parts of fandom. A flame. Dogpiled for some minor comment. Shunned by the popular kids. They're not fun, but I think it would help enormously with a lot of the ego professional authors have--like they can do no wrong and HOW DARE ANYONE QUESTION THEM.

[(Anonymous)]

This secret makes no sense at all. Twilight and the Hunger Games are two of the worst-written series ever. And also two of the most popular. Sounds like people have been reading fanfiction and publishing just want people want -- crap.

[(Anonymous)]

I just came here to say that reading fanfic, writing fanfic, mocking badfic, watching flamewars over canon, watching wank explosion over canon, participating in gender/race/sexuality discussions, etc (BASICALLY, FANDOM), have taught me more about writing than any writing class ever did.

[brightblueink]

...Wait, but I don't know of any authors known to have started as fanficcers, or books that started as fanfic, that are generally considered to be higher quality than typical published work.

In fact, I've seen some poor writing tropes and style choices actively encouraged by fandoms in fanfic sometimes. So, uhhhhh...

Yeah, nope, I think fanfic can be good practice but it's not automatically so.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd recommend not reading FFRants/TV Tropes for writing advice, actually. It may have changed since then, but last time I checked, the majority of FFRants posts were people harping on insignificant details in a fic that were annoying only to them, while the other posts were taken over by derails and arguments that had little to do with the topic originally discussed. TV Tropes is more like a catalog of "things that happen in fiction", with little to no discussion of why these devices are (or aren't) so effective, leading a lot of beginning writers who use the site to just mix and match a bunch of tropes and think that makes a good story. Also, the site's focus on fetishistic elements is really fucking creepy, although I've heard some of those pages have been recently purged or altered.

I'm not at all saying these sites should be avoided entirely, because they can be a good way to discover new books/series or just to waste a couple hours, and sometimes they bring up good points. But you have to wade through a lot of shit to get there. I think a better way to improve one's writing would be through reading a wider range of literature and discovering what works, rather than writing to fit within the preferences of one group of people online.

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree that authors should read fanfiction. I think you're right and that by doing so they could avoid falling into cliche territory. However, I think it's dangerous territory for published authors to foray into because they could be tempted to steal ideas. Even inadvertently -- they could read something with a plot they really enjoy and subconsciously lift said plot and weave it into their own narrative. Not that being influenced by other writers is a bad thing (quite the contrary), but I think plagiarism is an important thing to be worried about, particularly when the story being plagiarized is a piece of fanfiction which isn't subject to as much legal protection and regulation as professionally published material.

[caecilia]

Maybe the ones you've read just need to learn how to write better.

[dirac]

are they really "fanfic" cliches as opposed to just general story-telling cliches?

i would hope that if someone was serious about being an author, they would try to think critically about writing and clue into that sort of stuff just by reading stuff in general (be it another person's fanfic or original fiction, or going over your own work), without needing to browse a community like fanficrants.

honestly i feel that if an author is prone to using cliches or w/e, they'll probably do so regardless of whether they were involved in fandom beforehand or not. for all we know even if they had been in fandom beforehand they could've still spent the entire time writing the same kinds of stories, which could've been met with praise anyways. not to mention that there are authors who have been around for ages, and their writing styles haven't changed much.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it probably wouldn't do much a difference for some authors, specially for people who already thinks they are good. Good writers should be able to improve reading good writing, being either from fandom or published books.

As for you working in a library and feeling that way: yes, feeling your pain. It's not always the case, of course, but I have read horrible published books, and truly incredible amazing fics whose quality is higher than professional works. But, as a librarian, is expected that I always speak praise of published works, when I KNOW not all books really deserve it.

Hell, I was ordered last week to recommend a book that mostly left me like "meh", while I'll never be able to reccomend the jewel of a fic I'm currently into in Real Life. :(

[(Anonymous)]

50 Shades of Gray and Cassandra Claire say hi. Writing fanfics doesn't do shit if you are inherently unoriginal to begin with. The only thing I would learn from fanfiction, if I was stupid enough, is that Peggy Sue plot and harem are the best concepts ever. Non-cliche fanfics are like rainbow unicorns or at least white rhinos.

[streetcake]

Couldn't reading fanfic possibly have the opposite effect? I mean, a lot of fanfic is self-indulgent and not really novel-worthy even if it's good.

Though in a way, maybe it could be good? I mean, I've seen fanfic that was good because the writer obviously spent a lot of time considering the characters and their personalities/background/potential contributing factor for why they act the way they do/etc. Maybe if future-authors put more time in fleshing out their characters they would have an easier time writing them consistently and avoiding cliches that seem forced.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe you should be more upset with the publishers, for letting it through in the first place.

[velvet_mace]

Well there's certainly more discussion in fanfic circles about the art of writing and what sort of tropes are deemed currently acceptable and which ones fall flat. I remember before I got into fanfic I basically wrote in a vacuum. I got very little feedback -- no one wanted to talk to me about what made a story work and what didn't -- so I fished around and failed a lot.

I do think writing fanfic has improved my writing heaps.

But fanfic going mainstream is a pretty new thing. I mean, it's existed on the fringes forever, but I had never even heard of the concept as recently as 2003. That's not a lot of time for mainstream publishing houses and writers to catch up.

[(Anonymous)]

In the vein of what the second and third anons said on this thread, I think the nature of online fandom, with its ability to provide immediate feedback, could be very useful to some writers. You might get similar results from a writers' group or workshop, but if you're off on your own, writing with only friends and family - who may not even get the kind of writing you're trying to do and would probably tell you "It's lovely, dear" regardless - to bounce ideas off of, the wide and potentially harshly critical pool of readers online could be a wonderful tool. Of course, it's not exactly necessary, as good writers existed before the internet, but there are some authors who probably could have used a little more constructive criticism early-on.

[augustbird]

yes and no. the feedback culture of fandom is great. no matter how good you think you are, there's always going to be someone better than you at writing who's likely willing to give you tips. and there's generally always someone you can look up to, whose writing really takes your breath away and becomes something you want to try incorporating into your own writing.

but on the other hand, i feel as if fanfiction in general has a very specific sort of writing style and content that has a tendency to perpetuate itself through almost everyone who writes in fandom. there are a lot of fandom-specific cliche phrases and syntax choices that i don't think constitute good writing--not to mention the focus on a romantic underpinning (if not the main point) that drives the plot of a vast majority of fic. personally, i've found that the longer i was taught by fandom writing, the blinder i became to the drawbacks of fic writing.

[pelespen]

Fuck, man. Did I make this one in my sleep?

AMEN.

[(Anonymous)]

As a librarian, I can assure you that while some might want to, as you say, flay you alive, there are those of us who would do no such thing. (Remember that there are librarians out there who think the Twilight series is BRILLIANT and CLEVER. Then you can feel less bad about what those you work with think about you.)

[autumnal]

imo it's less about FANDOM than it is about exposure to thoughts/opinions/ideas that don't necessarly agree with yours and things that make you question yourself and evolve in your thinking and people who aren't afraid to tell you when you're being an idiot. fandom is a great place for that but i think if more writers did their homework as much or as well as a lot of the fic writers i know do, it would make a huge difference.

also, while i'm not really very conscious of what goes on in the publishing industry (nor do i ever intend to publish any fiction), i get more skeptical about it by day. i will never ever understand how some things got out there in print. just like i will never understand how some things did not. it really makes no sense to me at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Really, because I think more fandom fic writers should read actual books. If I never see another post asking for help with a story that goes "So I've got a Bruiser, a Lancer, and a White Haired Pretty Boy who Crash Into Hello's a Moe Moe Kyun Kyun Iyaaa Onii-Chan and sees her panties and I'm trying to calculate how Regenerating Health would work when..." it will be too soon.

But, seriously, like other posters before me have said, fanfic and fandom can become a hugbox that encourages and perpetuates word choices and stylistic habits in writing that not only are cliched, ineffective, and irritating, but are instantly recognizable to me when they make their ways into published books as being the work of people who have spent time in fandom. There's nothing inherent about it that provides people the instant tools to make their writing better, it's just a lot of people, some of whom might have good advice that you could possibly encounter at some point.

I'm also slightly baffled that you see these things that are fandom things and the conclusion that maybe the writer is (or was) in fandom and that that is why they write that way apparently never even occurred to you? Who says they can't have learned it in the exact place you think would fix the problem?

[(Anonymous)]

For all you know, that YA book you read was so full of fan fic cliches because it started as a fan fic.

[netbug009]

Oh heck no. Half of fandom's "rules of fiction writing" are way too black and white and make writers afraid to experiment. Most of the writing I've shared was in fandom and, while there plenty of good improvement I've made, I've had to unlearn a few things because my inner editor beats me up to no end every time I get a sentence down.

Tropes are not bad, people. Tell an interesting story. That's the most important thing. Even if you have a few cliches along the road, make them forgivable because the story is just so good people can't stop reading.