fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2199 ]

[ SECRET POST #2199 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2199 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dragon Age 2]

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[Baby-sitters Club]

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[The Twelve Kingdoms]

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[Dangan Ronpa]

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[Homestuck]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 023 secrets from Secret Submission Post #314.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Why do you get the impression everyone ignores the Chantry's problems? I don't think anyone disagrees that the Chantry has major issues it needs to work out, but people absolutely have the right to disagree with Anders' actions at the end of the game, which I imagine is the reason for a good portion of the hate directed at Anders. In order to incite a rebellion he committed an act of terrorism. I love the character, but what he did was abaolsutely disgusting.

*absolutely

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. IMO, the Chantry deserved it. They're an oppressive system beyond what I think most of us can imagine, which is why we're so horrified by what Anders does, but anyone who's lived under a regime wouldn't be, I don't think. The chantry is an evil regime, and it had to go down.

It's not an issue of whether or not the Chantry "deserved" it, but rather, do all the innocent civilians of Kirkwall deserve it? It's not like he blew up the building and all the debris fell neatly stacked in a pile. It was the tallest building in a heavily populated city, and you clearly see the fire spreading, not to mention all the lives that could be lost in the chaos that ensured. It's not just the regular civilians either--he KNEW Meredith would use it as an excuse to invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in Kirkwall became a sacrificial lamb ready for the slaughter without his or her consent. He knew this, but didn't care. THAT, imo, is what makes his actions completely inexcusable. He is willing to sacrifice all these lives of mages and citizen alike, all in the name of the "greater good," an extremely dangerous way of thinking.

So what was he supposed to do, start a hunger strike? Spread flyers? Because I doubt any form of civil disobedience as you and I think of it would have done jack shit. Civil disobedience banks on value being placed on life, and there's no value placed on mages' lives.

Besides, you stop Meredith from killing all the mages, the point was to prove how utterly out of her mind she and her chantry were.

The decision to stop the Right of Annulment rests on the play; it's entirely possible that Hawke joins in on the slaughter. Your last sentence is exactly why I hate what Anders did. Like I said, due to his "end justifies the means" mentality, he is willing to have every single mage in Kirkwall slaughtered for what he believes to be the greater good. The issue is not whether or not Anders methods are effective, but whether or not he had the right to do so.

As for what he could have done differently, well, I'm hesitant to play this game because we can spend all day going back and forth picking every alternative proposal apart and I don't see "what if" as a productive line of discussion. Like I said before, the issue is not whether or not his methods were effective, but whether or not he had to involve innocent lives in his line of crossfire. You obviously have no problem with it, but I, and many others, do.

But to show you that other things could have been done, here are some alternatives. They may or may not be effective, but that really is not my concern. The point is that there were other options, other efforts to be made besides blowing up a place of civilian worship.

1. He could have confronted Leliana about the Templar abuse during the "Faith" sidequest. You can argue that she should already know, but the point of this little hypothetical exercise is to show other actions Anders could have taken, not to measure their effectiveness. As an agent of the Divine, it is her responsibility to bring to the Divine's attention that Templars are abusing their power. From what we can discern from the Asunder novel, the Divine is open to the idea of reform, and trying to appeal to the higher-ups (in this case, the highest) on the inside can't hurt.

2. Keep writing. Even though he was unsatisfied by what he perceived to be ineffectiveness of his manifestos, we know how important written accounts could be in changing the tide of public opinion. Look at all the books and autobiographies written throughout history that have played a role in drumming up public support for a cause. All it takes is for one person to read it, then tell his friend, who tells the rest of his family, and so on. I know he wrote a manifesto, but if he wrote about personal experiences that would have been MUCH more effective. His arguments, iirc, were easily refutable, and given his passion I imagine a heartfelt account of his horrible experiences in the Circle would have been more effective.

3. Attack lyrium caravans. This would severely cripple the templars, who are addicted to the stuff.

4. If you must, assassinate Elthina, or better yet, Meredith. Don't blow up the whole freaking building!

5. If he still wants the "oomph" factor, he could have blown up the Gallows instead. He could kill most, if not all, of the templars. The mages too, but he clearly did not give a shit about their lives anyway.

*it rests on the player, not play

da

I didn't have an opinion with Anders one way or the other before, but when Anders blew up the Chantry I fell in love. Haha, I only wish he had trusted my Hawke enough to let me help. that shit was epic and the best justice that game had.

and don't whine about innocent people dying, the Chantry had like four nuns in it and that's it, including whatshername, the leader grandma who deserved to die long ago for being a lame duck and doing nothing to stop the corruption.

I love you.

kisses!

You seriously think the only people that could have died from the explosion of the tallest building in the city are the people that are inside the building? lol. You see the fire spread to other buildings in the cutscene. And how about the fact that Anders blew up the Chantry so Meredith would unjustly invoke the Right of Annulment, bringing attention to the problem at the expense of the lives of every mage in the city? They sure as hell had no say. You call that justice?

I know it's only a video game but honestly, anyone wanting to blow up a place of worship in a civilian area just squicks the hell out of me. The "end justifies the means" mentality is a very dangerous one, and plenty of horrible things have been done in the real world for the purpose of a desirable endgame. Justice and equality should absolutely be pursued, but not if we have to lose all our morals/ethics to do so, imo.

*that came out ruder than I intended. The first line of the second paragraph should be "the decision of wanting to blow up a place of worship in a civilian area just squicks the hell out of me."

Did some civilians die? Maybe. There's no canon either way, and even so, casualties of war. Seriously, the Warden and Hawke probably kill infinitely more innocent people in their antics, or good people just doing their jobs as guards, etc. The Chantry was a corrupt institution. There is no other way to put it. There were corrupted nuns in their ranks that killed people (Patrice, or whatever her name was) and the chantry grandma didn't do shit about it until she was confronted upright. SHE was the one who instigated the war by brewing bad relations between both the templars and the mages, by treating mages like children and allowing the templars to do whatever the fuck they want (except, of course, if they do it in front of her in a crowd). The Chantry didn't do shit for people in need, people who are being victimized and who are suffering.

As for Anders inadvertently killing mages, they were already being killed. The tension was high and something was about to break any second. Did the chantry act as a catalyst? Sure. But this shit was gonna happen anyway, I'd think that was pretty obvious. And for the mages, they were already being murdered by templars if they were deemed "too dangerous", and sometimes just for shits and giggles. Anders did not start this.

Is Anders crazy? Yeah, definitely. Does he always make morally good choices. nope. Any fan who argues that is off their rocker. But (most of the time) Anders thinks he's doing the right thing.

Hey, I agree with you, in real life, that the ends doesn't always justify the means. However, the whole point of this (fictional) game was that you couldn't be morally righteous all the time. you had to pick a side, and that would've been the end-game no matter what Anders had done. You don't have to be happy about it but you have to do it, morality is not black and white. that's the point.

And... come on. it's a game. let heads roll. especially the chantry's head. :D

I know it’s just a game, but this is the kind of topic that hits a little too close to home, if you know what I mean. I absolutely want Chantry reform to happen though, so hopefully the next game will allow that. I can’t get behind the total destruction of the Chantry though, because that’s the only organization that provides care for refugees, orphans, and widows all over Thedas. You say they don’t do anything for people in need, but the Chantry was the first place people would know to go to if their home was destroyed by darkspawn. I have a much less favorable opinion on how it’s run in Kirkwall, but as a whole I don’t think we should completely ignore the good. The main problem with the Chantry, imo, is that it has too much power, most (if not all) of which is due to their teachings on magic and the resulting Circle system. Teachings that have no basis in their holy text whatsoever (magic is a gift, not a curse, yet look at how much self-loathing many Circle mages have!).

Yet at the same time, I think a lot of people (myself included) are quick to jump on the “free all the mages” bandwagon without fully realizing the consequences. While their methods may be extreme, the Chantry is right when they say that magic is dangerous. A three year old could accidentally burn down a village during a temper tantrum. A nine year old could completely ruin a family’s only source of income by freezing their crops as a prank. An inexperienced adolescent could accidentally electrocute and kill her partner during sex. A spurned lover could use blood magic to control and rape the person he desires. What no one really talks about is what comes after the mages get their freedom. Obviously the current system is problematic, but there needs to be some kind of educational system put in place.

I used to feel the same way you did about Elthina at one point, but looking back at it I really don’t think she’s as bad as a lot of people make her out to be. She didn’t do anything to brew bad relations; she tried to act as a neutral party and keep the peace. You say she treated the mages like children, but I think she did the same to the Templars, if not more so (I’m thinking of her confrontation with Meredith in the beginning of Act 3). She’s a spiritual figurehead to the people, so yes, she is going to act like their mother (that’s one her titles, right?). Sebastian says that Meredith no longer was talking Elthina’s advice in Act 3, which shows that Elthina was trying to do something to try to curb Meredith’s craziness, but was unsuccessful. You can argue that she should have alerted the higher-ups, but given how the city was like a ticking timb bomb I can’t entirely fault her for not wanting to stir the pot, especially with the threat of the Right of Annulment hanging in the air.

I don’t like to discuss “what if’s” because I believe they are generally unproductive in discussions. Tensions were obviously running high, but there is no way to “know” that there would be a massive Annulment without Anders’ involvement. For all we “know,” Meredith could have been assassinated, Elthina could have put her foot down, or an alien spacecraft could have flown over Kirkwall and abducted all the mages. What we DO know is that Anders’ involvement lead to the slaughter of all the mages, something which I believe he had no right to get them involved in. Yes, many were abused and killed, but ALL of them? No. Anders’ actions however, were undoubtedly intended to lead to the death of every single mage, including the children.

I think we’re generally on the same page in that we want less power for the Chantry and more freedom for mages. Hopefully the next game will allow each of us to be as brutal or a pacifistic as we wish :)

So do you have a problem with the Death Star being blown up too?

If the Death Star was located in a civilian area with innocents around? Yes, I would have.

You honestly don't think there were any innocents on the Death Star? Engineers at the very least? Hell most of the Imperial officers seem all right, if cowed by Vader.

Imperial officers are still members of the military and therefore legitimate targets in a rebellion/war, regardless of their personal character. It's been a LONG time since I saw the Star Wars movies, but I don't recall seeing any non-military personnel on the Death Star. You can speculate all you want, but there is no conclusive evidence. We do, however, see civilians in Kirkwall.

We don't see civilians DIE from Anders blowing up the chantry, though. So, no conclusive evidence, as you said.

Keep in mind that my original comment was regarding Anders’ choice to trigger the explosion in a heavily populated area. The death count, or lack of, is completely irrelevant. Trying to turn this into a battle of numbers loses the core of the issue, which is Anders’ willingness to put noncombatants at risk.

If you want to go that route, however, we did see plenty of mages slaughtered because of what he did. That, in fact, was the intent: blow up the chantry so Meredith would invoke the Right of Annulment and turn the mages into martyrs. I would certainly consider the mages to be innocent, and their blood is on Anders' hands.

That being said, the fundamental difference, which I believe you understand deep down, is that the entire Death Star is a superweapon. Random Joe isn't going to get the grand tour with his family and pick up souvenirs from the gift shop. It's a highly classified space station where the only people aboard it are working for the military in some capacity. Kirkwall, on the other hand, if a city where people raise families, shop, work, live and pray. As players of the game, we know there are buildings right next to the Chantry. We know that Hightown is a heavily populated area where civilians live, work, and loiter. We've been there. We can physically see, with our eyes, other building catching on fire during the explosion. No, we don't see a piece of the chantry fall on top of Random Joe and crack his skull, but, given what we have witnessed in Hightown and during the cutscene, it is not an unreasonable assumption to make. You don't see any children slaughtered during the Right of Annulment, but given what we know about the Right and the Circle, it is entirely logical to claim that children were killed. Just as it is logical to claim civilians died during the explosion.

And finally, I point you to the sisters in the Chantry. You can argue that they weren’t “truly” innocent because they belong to an organization that plays a role in the oppression of others. But I’d like you to consider how many people in our world would die if turning a blind eye to injustice, or belonging to a group that directly or indirectly allows injustice to happen was a crime punishable by death.

That, in fact, was the intent: blow up the chantry so Meredith would invoke the Right of Annulment and turn the mages into martyrs.

WHOA. Totally different anon here who was just going through the thread out of interest, and now I feel like a total idiot for not having realized this. I have had so many discussions with my friends that basically turned into "Why would he blow up the Chantry, of all places, when he knew that it would just hurt his cause all the more?" But if his plan was to intentionally piss off Meredith so she would invoke the Right of Annulment even though the act was perpetrated by an apostate, thus forcing the rest of the world to see how unfair Templar control over the Circles is...

That is kind of genius and my mind is blown! I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't think it was the right thing to do (for all the reasons you've specified), but I have to admire Anders/Justice for coming up with such a twisted plan, hahaha! God I love this game :D

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2199 ]

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