fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2260 ]

[ SECRET POST #2260 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2260 ⌋

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 080 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I find it interesting how any time someone says "violence in video games encourages people to be more violent" everyone screams bloody murder to deny it but when someone says "sexism in video games encourages people to be more sexist", if you disagree then you are the most hateful anti-woman person ever.
Either people's actions and emotions irl will be affected by games or that they won't. the reasoning behind "video games don't make people violent" is that it's just a game and that acting out violent things on the screen won't make people more likely to be violent irl. if this is the case, then the principle (that seeing/acting out in a certain way in fiction won't make a person behave that way irl) should hold true across the board. If it doesn't, then maybe the whole violence thing should be re-examined. If it does, then complaints about misogyny in games on the basis that it will encourage gamers to be misogynistic irl are as unfounded as the same complaints re: violence.
This is the same principle that says that people should never be kink-shamed, because liking something or having positive reaction in some way to something that is fictional doesn't necessarily translate to real life.

I don't really have anything to add, but I think that's a really great point.

I don't think sexist characters in video games make people more sexist.
I don't think violent characters in video games make people more violent.

However, IC sexism in video games have nothing to do with how sexist the industry and culture IRL is or how they see/view women. You don't see video game companies encouraging violence, but you do see, for example, a whole lot of them encouraging sexism by constantly believing in tired old stereotypes - but lol all women want to do is play Barbie Horse Adventures on their pink DS, rite?

SA

Don't forget all the scantily clad female sex-object fap-fodder that's goddamned everywhere. That's not the character being sexist IC, that's the company deciding that men will fap to this and therefore pay lots of money. When someone complains about things like that, they're not saying the character is sexist, they're saying the designers, developers, and marketers are.

This is a good point (both comments). I was trying to figure out why I see a difference between the two and I think you've hit it.

DA

or the huge lack of female action protagonists in videogames, in comparison with male ones

and then when a game is a failure, they blame the fact that it had a female protagonist instead of the real reasons like crappy writing, bad implementation of features, etc.

I mean, off the top of my head: Samus Aran, Lara Croft, Bayonetta, Faith, Jade, Chell, that PS3 title with the sword-wielding woman?

while this is a good point, I don't see how it contradicts anything that was said above

the second comment by the same anon did, try reading it

I don't think violence/sexism/misogyny in video games makes people who whouldn't otherwise be more violent/sexist/misogynist, but I do think it normalizes them. And the more "normal" they become, the more acceptable they can become in the minds of many who have an inclination for those things.

not ayrt

ah, this is what I wanted to say, thanks

sexism is usually a far more subtle thing than violence, though, at least the kind of sexism that does affect the consumer

there are also very subtle forms of violence that have the same creeping normalizing effect that sexism, but those aren't the types that come to mind in these discussions

obviously, shooting people in fps and so on in fiction is not the same as in real life, but what about someone getting on their friend's face in a "playful" manner to get them to comply with a plan of action, for example? that is violence

same that, seeing a girl trying to join, say, a sport and people putting her down is obvious sexism and doesn't bleed from fantasy into real life in the minds of the viewers (and that's why it's like the shittiest aesop in cartoons ever these last few decades), but how about, for example, NCIS, where women in positions of power keep being torn down or have weird ass sexual tension with Gibbs, whereas the ones that keep their pride intact are the ones subservient to other men (like Abby)? that's a subtle thing that most viewers likely don't notice unless they go into the show actually looking for it, and it's far more harming because there is a shitload of sexism and discrimination in many military forces irl

Comparing the effect on actions and the effect on thoughts and emotions is kind of apples to oranges, though.

I'm going to be vague since it's been a while since I've read any relevant studies, but if I recall correctly the general research consensus is that media generally has a much greater effect on people/society's value systems than it does on individual's actions. Running with your violence example, then, violent media may have very little if any effect on whether or not a person will be violent, but it may have a considerably greater effect on people's tendency to see violence as cool, macho, or as an acceptable response in certain circumstances.

There's a huge difference between being violent and being sexist, though. A sexist isn't necessarily going to walk down the street yelling weird things at women; that's apparently what Reddit is for. In contrast, a violent person is going to be violent, which may translate to physical action.

Sexism =/= action.

Also, there is the fact that sexism in video games exists in the context of a sexist culture; video games are sexist, but so is other popular media. The difference is that when people say "video games are making people violent" they tend to be talking about things like school shootings.

When people say "video games are making people sexist," they're talking about gross guys on Reddit. Nobody is saying someone beat his wife because of Samus Aran's character changes. They are saying gross guys feel comfortable being gross.

Those guys do that anyway, though. They don't need video games to "validate" their behavior, because that's how they are all by themselves.

Thank you, you said it better than I could think it.

In contrast, a violent person is going to be violent, which may translate to physical action.

I think this part is really important. Already violent people might get more violent because of a video game, but I don't think it's more likely that it happens with a video game than it happens when reading the Bible (which has a lot of really violent stuff in it), or watching evening television. It's not causing anything.

But I think it's important to note that if we live in a sexist culture, then sexism in video games enforces all of that. It continues to encourage people to think that way. It sort of nudges out the latent sexism for some people. It's not the only thing in our society that does that, but it's perhaps one of the most egregious ones.

It's a matter of lots of violence being a result of someone who is mentally ill or deranged, where as a completely average person can be sexist. No one is going to shoot up a school because of a video game, because this is not something our society condones in any matter. But sexism is.

Do people actually claim sexism in video games make people more sexist?

See, I don't have a problem with sexism in video games because I think it makes people more sexist. My main problem with sexism in video game is that it's sexism. Actual, real sexism. The violence in the games is fictional - nobody really gets hurt - but the sexism is real and affects the women who play or watch the game.

People claim that it validates sexism and strengthens it in society, from what I've seen. They also claim that it teaches that sexism is acceptable to people who wouldn't have otherwise thought so, which you could make the same claim for violence as a means of conflict resolution or of getting what you want.

What video game communities are you running through? Because every time there's anything negative said about a video games, the industry, gamer culture, gamers will go off the deep end defending their hobby.

Because any criticism = TAKING MY GAMES AWAY

eta: I should probably add that it's not that there is no valid defense. Also, regarding sexism and violence, violence tends to be brought up as a cause for something else (eg: playing cod totally caused a shooting) without looking at underlying problems or someone's predisposition to violent behaviour. It's something to blame while people try to rationalise tragedy imo.

Sexism though? I've never heard of anyone saying something like, "that dude catcalls random women because VIDEO GAMES".

Edited 2013-03-12 01:40 (UTC)

Because any criticism = TAKING MY GAMES AWAY

THIS EXACTLY. OP, are you listening? This is HUGE in gaming culture. Basically anything gamers don't like is TAKING MY GAMES AWAY.

younger children are more impressionable in general, and anything can end up influencing their emotional growth. the presence of sexism in games is more so an internal concept than a visual one, like violence is. there's a difference between the complexities of misogyny and two dudes getting in a fistfight.

most people who don't see a pattern in violence in the gaming world and the "real" world have their views because the majority of people know that violence is bad, and can separate games from societal experiences. sexism in games can be anything from incredibly subtle to obnoxious as fuck, but either way, sexism is rarely punished both in games and out of them.

like, people know you can't go around stabbing your enemies with swords irl. it's unrealistic. but then you have women treated like shit, like damsels in distress, like objects or servants, and then you have their visual representation, and what's there to tell boys/men/anyone that this is an inaccurate portrayal? nothing, really, because we live in a sexist world. a violent one too, yes, but when most of us face negative consequences for acts of violence (like hitting siblings) we grow up knowing it's not okay. people are less likely to do things they know have negative implications.

overall violence and sexism are different kinds of issues and it's borderline fallacious to apply similar thinking to both topics.

eta: i don't think sexism in games makes people "more sexist" but i do think, like someone else said, it normalizes the idea. people are already pretty sexist. by condoning their beliefs through media it will only reinforce them.

Edited 2013-03-12 02:29 (UTC)

The difference is that in general there is a bigger anti-violence message than there is an anti-sexism message in society.

We are all taught from a young age that you don't smash someone on the head with a crowbar. That is already instilled in us. So then when you do it once in a while in a video game, you don't immediately go OH YES NOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS MEANT TO DO ALL ALONG.

Our society however is a sexist one. And most sexist ideas are never called out. So when a videogame has those messages, there generally isn't the societal message that counteracts to make people understand that this is wrong. That's what makes it more likely to influence people. Because there is nothing that really tells them this is not good.

Yeah, no, one of those things is not like the other.

Firstly, the entire reason people enjoy violence in games is so they can have an outlet that doesn't hurt any real people. People are taught by society that violence is harmful, so games let people enjoy their explosions without hurting any real people. Even then the violence is stylized or toned down; there's very few games that show REALISITC gore.

But when it comes to sexism in games? Not only does society actually encourage it, but games PANDER to it, explictly taking advantage of it so they can make more money. They even push it outside the realm of the game itself with things like booth babes and paid cosplayers, taking the attitudes within the game and applying to actual people.

So in short: 'This is a safe outlet' =/= 'Here's what you want on a silver platter!'

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2260 ]

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