Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-08-10 03:23 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-08-10 03:23 pm
[ SECRET POST #2412 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2412 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 093 secrets from Secret Submission Post #345.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Do you get misogyny because he casually sleeps with women? Because that is not what misogyny is, jsyk.
And homophobia because he gets flustered when people think he is gay? Even though all those people assume he is gay with his brother which would make anyone flustered. He has had no problem with both the male gay couple from the SPN Con episode OR Charlie (who is a lesbian).
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:01 pm (UTC)(link)First off, you don't have to be shouting how much you hate women or gay people to have misogynistic and homophobic tendencies. I don't think Dean is misogynistic because he has casual sex. I couldn't care less. However, he does tend to use gendered insults toward women more often than Sam and Cas. Even before Ruby was sleeping with Sam, he referred to her as a "skank." Additionally -- especially in earlier seasons -- Dean tends to see femininity as a weakness and "acting like a girl" as bad. When Sam annoys him, he tells him "not to act like a little bitch" or to "stop being a girl." Yes, I realize that he has gotten better over the seasons and that his aversion to "acting feminine" had to do with the way his father raised him to be this uber masculine soldier, but I'm still allowed to be annoyed with it.
I do believe Dean is somewhat casually homophobic, but I think most straight guys are. I think it has gotten better as society as progressed, but, for the most part, guys get rather offended if someone implies that they're gay because they believe that means they're "feminine" (which ties back to misogyny) and undesirable or whatever. I remember Dean making two pretty blatant homophobic remarks in the show. (There may be others, but these are just a couple I remember). In the fairy tales episode, he asks Sam "if he could be any more gay?" for talking about fairy tales, implying male homosexuality = femininity = bad. In season 7, while talking to Balthazar about Cas and Crowley teaming up, he refers to them as "butt buddies" which is a pretty blatant attempt to emasculate Cas to make himself feel better by equating Cas' negative actions with homosexuality (which he views as a weakness).
I'm not saying Dean getting grossed out that people thinking him and Sam are a gay couple makes him homophobic. It's pretty fucking normal to be grossed out when people think you and your sibling are a couple. I wasn't even talking about that. I am talking about the fact that, from what I've seen, pretty much all of Dean's interactions with gay men involve him being uncomfortable or somewhat weirded out. You bring up the Con dudes, but Dean was grimacing when they told him they were a couple. Sure, you can argue that it's because they were roleplaying as Sam and Dean, but you can argue context all day long. There's also the S&M dude at the club, the vampire, and Aaron (who he believes to be gay at the time). The writers have pretty much made it a running gag that "Dean the manly straight dude gets hit on by a guy and is thus uncomfortable because it threatens his manly sense of manliness." So yeah, pretty much all of Dean's interactions with gay guys have been played for laughs. One writer even said that the episode with Aaron was funny because Dean is a "macho straight guy."
Sure, Dean's comfortable with Charlie, but why wouldn't he be? Charlie doesn't pose threat to his masculinity like "those gay guys."
When I think about it, I think the incongruity in the writing of Dean's character might be my main problem. I feel like some writers try to ease off the machismo and have Dean grow as a character by acting a bit more sensitive, but then another character will have Dean take two steps back by saying something pretty misogynistic.
no subject
Con dudes: Yes it could very much be they are playing Sam and Dean. He was uncomfortable but not hateful in any way
S&M dude at the club: If you were confronted in a dark alley by a big guy who looks like a biker and asks for your safeword, you would not even be a bit uncomfortable? Because I would be running far away.
The vampire: I assume you mean the one who turned him? Yeah, he gets told by a creepy guy in an alleyway where he is hunting a vampire, "Your pretty." He doesn't attack the guy or act disgusted. He says, "I don't play for your team" and turns away. I am just not seeing the homophobia.
Aaron: He got flustered but again didn't act disgusted in any way. To me it seemed more that he was thrown off his "FBI Investigation" game.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)I suppose I should have clarified that the last paragraph listing examples of Dean getting hit on by guys is an exclusive problem with the writers -- not Dean. However, the previous examples I listed still apply. Dean still has said things that are flat-out sexist and homophobic, and I dislike those aspects of his character -- though they make sense since, like another anon mentioned, he was raised learning offensive stereotypes and colloquialisms.
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(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)Glad we've reached an understanding!
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:20 pm (UTC)(link)Wait, you're trying to claim that Dean is homophobic but you're using Aaron and the Chief as examples of this? How was Dean homophobic with Aaron? If anything, he seemed pleased about Aaron hitting on him and proudly announced it to Sam, then was disappointed to find out that Aaron hadn't actually been hitting on him after all. Second, the Chief? Really? You're going to claim that the reaction of a guy who had just been tortured for decades to unexpectedly finding himself in an S&M parlor with a guy wanting to hurt him as "homophobic"? Dude. Uncool.
As for these other examples, let's see. You mentioned the vampire. That would be the one who creepily invaded his personal space and called him "pretty"? That one? The one who was acting like a predator and was one, considering that he then beat Dean up and turned him into a vampire against his will? That vampire?
As for the misogyny, huh. I just don't even really know where to go with that. Dean's behavior isn't ideal, no, but it's also not something I'd hate him for or stand up in defense of anyone calling him a crappy person. It's also not, IMO, straight up misogyny. Teasing someone for "being a girl" isn't feminist. It's got severely questionable roots. But it doesn't, for most people, act as an actual indication that a person hates women or thinks of them as less than men.
If anything, Dean demonstrates the exact opposite. Far from thinking of women as less capable than men, he's perfectly fine with working with women or with taking their lead. It comes up pretty clearly with Jo, where she makes the claim back in S2 that he doesn't want to work with her because of her gender and he fires back just as plainly that it's because she's inexperienced and she has an out from hunting that she isn't taking advantage of. It has absolutely nothing to do with her sex. That's plain from his interactions with Jo, Ellen, Jody Mills, Linda Tran, and Lisa - he never thinks less of women for being women. If he has a divide in that line at all, it's with hunters and non-hunters. He idolizes non-hunters but at the same time thinks they're less capable, which really isn't fair to either. But it's not misogyny either.
As for Ruby, what does her sleeping with Sam have to do with anything? Dean had plenty of reason to hate and distrust Ruby from the get-go. He was rightfully suspicious of her since she's a demon who was trying to get Sam to use his powers. (Both things, btw, he was proven right to be suspicious of.) I don't like that he called her a "skank" but his distrust and dislike of her was richly deserved. Again, not ideal behavior but I'm at a loss for why you can think that how he acts towards lying, manipulating demons is an indicator of how he'd act towards or think of actual women.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)Also, I don't really understand what you're arguing here? I flat-out said in my post that I like Dean, but he has some misogynistic and homophobic tendencies. Dean has some very admirable qualities. I never said he didn't. I just don't like these particular aspects of his character.
Like I said I don't like him saying homophobic and sexist things, and you're saying you also don't like him saying homophobic and sexist things, so I feel like we're in agreement there?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)Mm, I agree with you that the problem is more with the writers really not getting how offensive the shit they're spewing is than with Dean himself, but I also don't agree with the other things you're saying.
I don't remember Dean having a negative reaction when the real estate agent thought he and Sam were a couple back in S1? When he found out a gay man died in his place back in Faith, he was just as horrified as he would have been if the guy was straight. He didn't have any issues with the gay Ghostfacer? He also hasn't had an "ew gross" reaction in the slightest when people claim that Cas is his boyfriend or is in love with him. And seriously, what about Aaron? How was his response homophobic when he was grinning about it and proudly telling Sam about it, then looked really disappointed to find out Aaron wasn't hitting on him after all?
It's just very weird and outright unfair to me to judge him as homophobic when the times he more openly reacted negatively were all times with pretty understanding surrounding context. It really makes a difference, you know?
The difference is that your argument comes across to me as Dean being actually homophobic and misogynistic and I really can't agree with that. As we both agree, the majority of it is with the writers themselves and there is no doubt that they are homophobic and misogynistic. However, Dean as a character isn't. Each one of "homophobic" reactions you mentioned is invalidated by context (and actually, with the vampire? Dean wasn't even homophobic - it's not homophobic to politely tell someone you're not interested!). He's also not demonstrated outright misogyny - the examples you gave really are more sexist than misogynistic. (And I'll absolutely agree that Dean can be sexist on occasion.)
no subject
I think about how he reacted to Missouri Mosley. She mocked him, said he was a 'funny looking kid', threatened him for 'thinking' about putting his feet up and yet.... When she told him to sit down and make little anti-poltergeist bags, he did, no question.
She orders him to clean up the house afterward like *he* made the mess, and when they leave? He's helping her down the stairs, being very courteous. Dean hates demons - duh! - but unless they're screwing him over (see Bela) he does *not* hate, or treat *women* - badly.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)I may not be all up to season 8, but as far as season 6, I've never seen Dean treat a woman as less capable of anything JUST because she's a woman. His complains against Jo, for example, where about her lack of experience, not about her being a woman, and he tells her so, for example, and he never treats a female monster as less of a treat than a male one. At the same point, not only he doesn't react offended in seasons 1-3 whenever he's assumed to be gay (yes, even when they assume he's with his brother), and I'm sorry, but his grimace at the Con CAN be because they're cosplaying as him and his brother and he has made clear his feelings about wincest before. The S&M dude, and the vampire where both situations in which he was making clear he was not gay BECAUSE he thought that both were showing interest in him (The Chief because Dean was going into the club due to the trick the magicians played on him and believed Dean to be into gay S&M, and the Vampire because his first lines to Dean sounded like a come on). On the other hand, he doesn't react badly when Balthazar says that Castiel is in love with him, or at the gay ghostfacer.
Is the show misogynistic and at times homophobic? Hell, yes! Same as the fandom. But from there to say that Dean, as a character, is written specifically as an homophobic, macho jerk is a bit of a stretch. Dean has a lot of horrible flaws, but I think those two are not it.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)Uh, I didn't really read that much into Balthazar's line, and I'm pretty sure Dean didn't either? It's like when Meg called Cas Dean's boyfriend. They seem to be teasing Cas for the sacrifices he is willing to make for Dean when they are both much more self-involved. Dean not really having that much of a reaction...doesn't really prove anything?
Also, Dean not hating on the gay ghostfacer doesn't really prove anything either? I was talking about casual homophobia (which is a thing a lot of straight guys possess). Dean has said things that are pretty freaking homophobic and sexist. I dislike this aspect of his character.
You just said the show is homophobic, and you said Dean isn't written to be homophobic. The writers make the show, and they are the ones writing Dean. At a certain point, you have to acknowledge that the writers' sexism and homophobia has also influenced a character to a degree.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-08-10 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)Maybe the thing is that I differentiate between 'saying sexist and homophobic things' and 'being sexist and homophobic'.
A really homophobic person or character would react at those jokes, somehow. Because they're jokes at the expense of his masculinity. The fact that he doesn't proves that he's not written as a homophobic character. (and good for you not to read anything on those lines, for me they're jokes. But they're jokes that a homophobe would take as offensive and horrible)
You didn't say that he was casually homophobic, you said that he was homophobic, and there's a difference between both.
Yes, the writer's sexism influence what Dean says. But so far, it hasn't make him homophobic or sexist. It's ok if you hate that he does say homophobic and sexist things, but seriously, it's like saying he's racist because most of the PoC characters in the show are evil and he kills them. (Again, the show is being racist, but Dean, as a character, has never been written as a racist man)