[ SECRET POST #2510 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2510 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 092 secrets from Secret Submission Post #359.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[electromouse]

You are right, it's not fair to judge a non-native english speaker. And it's not like they can't improve their english skills with time and practice. Be patient with them, young padawan.

[akacat]

How're they going to improve if nobody corrects them? (I'm not blaming the OP for not correcting them -- I understand how it can be with BNFs and their sometimes rabid minions.)

[nyxelestia]

Back when I still left concrit and stuff, I rarely got flak directly from authors unless I was beta-ing them and they thought I was too harsh. Most of the time, it came from other readers. My most memorable incident was years ago, I left a review that was praising but also critiquing. The author appreciated it enough to ask me to beta her next fic. The readers? Not so much.

[electromouse]

I agree that if no one corrects them, they wont improve. But I also think that judging them for not being good at what's not their first language is good either.

I used to think like this before teaching English (a long, long time ago) and realized some of my students had trouble with it, while others got it right away. It made me realize I was being pretty anal about it.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a non-English speaker and reading poor English makes me want to tear my hair out. I'm sure as hell judging.

[(Anonymous)]

It's nice that your language skill is so great, but you could maybe consider that not everyone has received the same benefit of education? Like, I myself am privileged as hell and got to study abroad, but I'd have to judge myself if I started getting all arrogant over my countrymen about it.

[(Anonymous)]

And how is my judging silently or being angry in front of my computer hurting anybody? It is not. And while you may have had the priviledge of studying abroad, I have not. Do not presume.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not a great attitude either way. Before I was able to study abroad, I learned English in my country, but even having the time/opportunity to do that much made me more privileged than many others. And hey, we never think our judgmental tendencies will ever affect anything, until we are called upon to interact with the people we've judged and suddenly those silent judgments start coloring our treatment of them. I speak from experience; I actually had to work to unlearn my bad attitude because it made working in a professional environment full of people from different backgrounds difficult.

[(Anonymous)]

Again your experiences/circumstances =/= mine. I'm actually very relaxed about other people's English and supportive of them in this respect in real life. I never correct or critcise anybody. It just annoys the hell out of me when people without a certain level of skill write fics.

I'm not sure while you insist I be perfect in every little aspect ever. I am allowed flaws that do not actually hurt anybody.

And I totally used that subjunctive to flaunt my priviledge - not sure when personal effort and hard work became that, but hokay, be it your way.

[(Anonymous)]

Ahh hubris. "While" should be "why".

And I may be in the wrong mood for the discussion, I am not hals as aggressive about the subject as I may come across. Just let people be not perfect in their heads. Just a tad less self-righteous.

That will be EOT and good night from me.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I certainly hope that's the case. Just remember what I said if you should ever end up working with someone whose skill level underwhelms you. The situation doesn't change just because it's no longer about fanfiction; if anything, you'd probably be more annoyed because this person's ability or lack thereof might potentially affect your own performance. It becomes a bad habit so easily.

[(Anonymous)]

I would not write fic after fic in another language if I was not good at that language and was not improving. It would be insulting, I feel.

You're coming off with a condescending attitude yourself.

[(Anonymous)]

It's intentional. I find this judgmental attitude repulsive, especially coming from former ESL-ers. How a person feels about their language ability is their own business, and possibly that of their teacher or employer. And hey, the OP hasn't even shown up to clarify what it is that this BNF does. Do we know she writes fic?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

As someone who taught herself two languages (and is self studying a third one right now) and who isn't privileged enough to even be able pay for some classes in the cheapest institute around, I still judge people who can't be brothered to try to improve a language they're using frequently.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

+1

[(Anonymous)]

I find that attitude odd, to be honest. Language mastery is important to me, so I prioritize that, and I'm going to assume the same about you, but that's not the case for everyone. We don't know what's going on in their lives. Even a person who needs to use a language in their profession may not need to improve their skill beyond what's required to get the job done; their lack of priority is totally understandable. And this? Is fandom, a hobby. It'd be one thing if writing were involved, but otherwise, what business is it of ours if people are satisfied with their current skill level and don't want to take it any further? Why are educated people so quick to judge?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRF

But it's nor about mastery per se, just trying to express yourself better so other people can understand you (general you, obvs).

And let's be honest here: when you use a language frequently, you pick up words and grammatical patterns and start noticing when something sounds "wrong", so even without studying grammar seriously it's possible to improve. Most people who don't improve at all just don't care.

[(Anonymous)]

I imagine that, if the person in the secret is capable of becoming a BNF, then obviously a number of people already understand her just fine. That she's not up to the OP's standard isn't cause to think that she's some gibbering wreck spouting incoherent nonsense.

You're right, constant use is probably the best way to learn a language. But why do you care if they don't care to improve? I'm honestly puzzled.

[hwc]

Are you a non-native speaker? I'm ESL and I speak from experience when I say that it's basically impossible NOT to learn English in English speaking fandom. I got into it when I was in danger of failing English in school; two years later I was the best in my grade. And believe me, it wasn't because I was suddenly studying more for school. (If anything, I was actually studying less as I got so obsessed with fic for a while that I would print it out and read it during class.)

Your comment suggests that improving your English skills in or for fandom is some kind of chore, but honestly, just reading fic and watching/reading the source material in English (assuming the works originally are English) already improves your language skills so much. You don't even have to put any effort into it, fandom makes you learn English by freaking osmosis.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

My English skills were suffering from lack of use before I entered fandom. But the last year they've improved greatly, just reading and writing in English. I don't know how someone could not improve writing so much in another language.

[(Anonymous)]

I am, and I don't dispute what you say to be true since it was so for me as well. But we are talking about two different things. I wasn't arguing the legitimacy of learning a language via fandom (if you're so inclined), but the wisdom in judging people's shortcoming based on your fandom interactions with them. Whether or not your English improves via fandom is irrelevant, my point was that people's priorities differ and if someone doesn't find improving their language skill to be important, it's fine. Maybe fandom is the only place they even need English, we never know.

The question of priority notwithstanding, each person learns at a different pace and in their own way. It's possible what we experienced may not be true for this woman, or perhaps she's still learning by osmosis right now and won't necessarily appreciate being judged for it. In the mean time, she will use her imperfect English command to be fannish, and I find nothing particularly judgment-worthy in that.

Curious

[scrubber]

What languages did you teach yourself?

Re: Curious

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

English and Japanese (though I still have a lot of room for improvement in both languages) and I started with German two months ago.

[electromouse]

I see this thread escalated while I was gone.

I just stopped paying much attention and just shrug and click the back-button. It has saved me a lot of hair tearing.

Also you reminded me about something that happened like two weeks ago, where a German artist (pretty young, from what I gathered) was praising my art and apologizing for their English. Imo a lot of non-native speakers are aware of their level, so judging them seems kinda harsh?

Oh, and also adding that English is not my first language either.

[electromouse]

Man, I'm re-reading my comment and it sounds like I'm being harsh on OP, rather than giving a solution. Imo, if you know they are open to being corrected on their English, then go ahead and do it. Otherwise they are not going to improve.