[ SECRET POST #2666 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2666 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #381.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm conflicted about that, because he was so young and had so little control of the situation.

[darkmanifest]

Tysha had no control, either, she was still raped regardless of who was forcing Tyrion to do it.

[(Anonymous)]

Nevertheless, this is a conversation about Tyrion's morality, so his circumstance, motivation, and degree of control matter.

Compare with Ramsay's victimization of Theon and Jeyne.

[darkmanifest]

I thought it was a conversation of what Tyrion actually did, not the extenuating circumstances of why he did it. I'm not condemning him for the horrible situation Tywin forced him to participate in, I'm not saying he should have been punished for it like the willing rapists that Tywin and the guards were, but he did rape her. From Tysha's perspective, violated by a dozen people without her consent, Tyrion was probably just one more.

And frankly I'm getting a little weirded out by how many people are climbing out of the woodwork to completely ignore the horror Tysha endured to tell me about poor Tyrion's feelings.

[(Anonymous)]

I totally anticipated, the moment I typed that comment, to be rebutted with, "You're ignoring the victim's feelings to defend the rapist!" This is going pretty much along the lines of every Internet conversation about Tyrion ever.

And yet it still doesn't change the fact that this thread is about Tyrion's morality, since it responds not only to a secret about his perceived "goodness" but also to a comment vouching for his character. That comment's reasoning is, "He's no rapist," and your counter is, "He did in fact rape someone". The counter-counter, "The circumstances of that event make me conflicted," is neither irrelevant nor categorically refuting your statement. Tysha's feelings? Nobody is denying she was raped. But it absolutely matters, in this particular conversation, to stipulate that Tyrion was unwilling, coerced, and only 13 when her rape happened. Why are we talking about Tyrion's feelings? Because this entire thread is about them, his feelings and what he does with them and what kind of a person that makes him.

[darkmanifest]

The counter-counter, "The circumstances of that event make me conflicted," is neither irrelevant nor categorically refuting your statement.

Then what is that statement supposed to mean, exactly? That one is conflicted about the circumstances surrounding the rape that Tyrion committed - which I completely understand, since they were some fucked-up circumstances - or conflicted about whether or not Tyrion committed rape at all? I don't have an issue with the former, and I apologize if that's what I'm mistakenly railing against. It's the latter conflict that I'm addressing.

To me, it's about the reality of actions apart from his internal feelings and intentions. Tysha didn't consent to any of the people who assaulted her. That Tyrion didn't consent to the assault, either, doesn't make her lack of consent to to him any less true. His participation in something he didn't want to do does not make him a monster or a criminal or anything other than a victim who victimized someone else at the same time. But he did victimize her.

[(Anonymous)]

See, what you keep sticking to is this solipsistic discussion about whether or not what happened to Tysha was rape, when the dialogue taking place here given the larger context is whether or not Tyrion is morally reprehensible because he was forced to rape his wife. When you rebutted noodly's claim with, "Didn't he rape Tysha?" the implication is clearly that Tyrion is a morally reprehensible rapist, and nobody would see it otherwise, because that is the big issue we've been discussing. You entered in the middle of a morality debate but didn't disclaim otherwise -- that for you, this was only a yes or no question.

What do you want us to say at this point? That Tysha was raped. Yes, she was. That what Tyrion did was rape? People are evidently in disagreement about that in this thread. That we should disregard "extenuating circumstances"? No, we can't, because the extenuating circumstances are the key to this discussion: we're making a moral judgment on the character, so we have to look at the case as a whole. And before you go at me again for disregarding Tysha's side in favor of Tyrion's -- it's what happens when you discuss a nominal character whose only role is to develop another. The only ways we can even talk about Tysha at all is either in relation to Tyrion or in the context of victimization of women in ASOIAF in general, and this is the former of those conversations.

[darkmanifest]

I wasn't trying to imply that Tyrion was morally reprehensible, just that he did rape someone. I wasn't approaching it as a morality debate, but, as you said, a yes or no question. ASoIAF is a series where somebody can have done, threatened, or allowed absolutely horrible things and still be a decent overall person in the extremely fucked up circumstances that Westeros allows. So I think I assumed that asserting that Tyrion was forced to rape someone wasn't actually passing a moral judgment on his character in the context of such a universe.

And I'm not trying to get anyone to say anything. It's not a win or lose/right or wrong debate, I have my position, and other people have theirs. I acknowledge that people disagree that Tyrion committed rape; I feel that he did, that it's possible to do something like that against his will, and to not be guilty of any actual wrongdoing.

it's what happens when you discuss a nominal character whose only role is to develop another.

This is probably the core of my entire issue. I'm trying to discuss the theoretical position and perspective of a character who isn't actually a character, but an event that happened to an actual character. It's true I wasn't being fair in dismissing everyone else's focus on Tyrion's feelings, when Tyrion's feelings are all we have for sure. I resent that, but it's not ours or the character's fault that that's the way it is.

[truxillogical]

I dunno, it was definitely rape, but I feel like both of them were the victims. He's a kid who knows his father can kill him (and would love the excuse), he's absolutely terrified and he's basically forced into a sexual act that he does not want to do. That's rape. I mean, his wife had it even worse, but I just can't see him as the rapist in that scenario. Tywin, by proxy.

[darkmanifest]

I never said he wasn't a victim - you can be a victim and a victimizer at the same time. Tyrion raped Tysha, he didn't want to, but he did. I'm not thinking of it from Tyrion's point of view, but from Tysha's.

[(Anonymous)]

From her prospect she would have been thinking about the actual person in control. They were both forced into it. (I'm not sure how clear that book makes it though.)

Like in The Butterfly Effect that little boy and girl were being forced to have sex by their father. The brother wasn't raping the sister. The father was the rapist, even if he wasn't involved in the actual sex. The sister never blames the brother, because they were both in the same situation. The boy was being raped, too.

[darkmanifest]

Yeah, Tyrion's recollection in the book isn't clear about what Tysha did or didn't know about what was going on, or how she reacted during the assault - I'm not sure she even knew Tyrion was unwilling, since Tyrion himself wasn't aware that she was unwilling. As has been pointed out to me elsewhere in the thread, Tywin as the adult would have been the one ensuring they'd be turned against each other for what wasn't actually either of their faults.

[(Anonymous)]

Um that makes Tyrion a rape victim too....

[darkmanifest]

Yes, it does. Him being a rape victim doesn't magically make what he did to Tysha not rape.

[(Anonymous)]

It doesn't make it not rape, but it does make him not the rapist. He was the instrument of his father's crime, not the willing perpetrator of his own.

Tywin raped Tysha. He just did it with someone else's dick.

[darkmanifest]

Ah, no, I don't agree, because then we can extend it say that the guards were just following orders, and that Tywin is the only one responsible for any of it. Gang rape scenarios often have a mastermind who pressure the other participants, but while it means the others are less responsible than the mastermind, it doesn't make them not responsible at all. Unless Tyrion lost all physical control of his limbs, he committed rape. Does he deserve to be punished for it? Not necessarily so, no. But would Tysha be right to regard him as one of her rapists? Yes, I think so.

[chardmonster]

Yeah, the thirteen year old should have taken control of the situation and stopped the gang rape by armed men, what a horrible person.

[darkmanifest]

Oh, my god, really? I want to answer this seriously, but I feel like you must be kidding. I'm never sure with you.

[(Anonymous)]

wow there's a whole world between grown guards following their lord's orders vs a child who is being forced by their abusive parent. you can advocate for tysha without making tyrion's own abuse out the window. there's no 'most raped' contest.

[darkmanifest]

You're right that they're worlds apart and I think I went too far trying to make my point by comparing the two. My apologies.

[(Anonymous)]

Even Tysha's feelings can only be speculated upon, however. We can safely surmised that she felt victimized, and it's possible she holds Tyrion equally culpable, but we don't know that.

[(Anonymous)]

:/

[(Anonymous)]

There's a difference between the exertion of social pressure, and the coercion of a crippled child by a perpetual abuser who is, implicitly or otherwise, threatening violence and death.

The guards may have been following orders, but they're just as likely to have been willing recruits, because the Westerosi treatment of sex workers (and it's almost inconceivable that they weren't also fed the story that Tysha was a prostitute) is frankly appalling. We'll never know, because they're not actually characters.

Tysha is well within her rights to view everyone involved in her rape in the most negative conceivable light, including Tyrion. That's not in question. His culpability from a god's-eye viewpoint - whether or not he can reasonably be called a rapist by out-of-universe viewers who know the entirety of the situation - is.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, no, that doesn't sit right with me at all. That sends the message to abused children that they are responsible for the things they're forced to do as part of their abuse, that they can't process their abuse without first processing the guilt they apparently should feel.

[darkmanifest]

This comment was completely off base and I apologize to everyone involved in this discussion for it, particularly survivors that I upset. What I should have said was this: Tyrion was used to commit rape by someone else's hand, yes, but he was still a participant in rape, unwillingly so. I was wrong to say he was responsible for his participation; he just participated, and the responsibility belonged to the grown men.