fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2719 ]

[ SECRET POST #2719 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2719 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Jared Leto, Doctor Strange]

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03.

[WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$]

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04.

[Star Trek: The Next Generation]

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05.

[Odd Thomas]

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06.

[Murdoch Mysteries]

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07. http://i.imgur.com/4VlZYj4.png
[porny, illustrated]

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08.

[Big Time Rush]

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09. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]

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10. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]

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11. [SPOILERS for OUaT]

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12. [SPOILERS for Game of Thrones]
http://i.imgur.com/U7UnmUI.png
[gore]

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13. [WARNING for abuse]

[Lie to Me]

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14. [WARNING for dub-con/non-con/etc]

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15. [WARNING for suicide]

[Rick and Morty]

Notes:

Might be ANOTHER 12 am day. Response time will again be slow, sorry.

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #388.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Honestly, if I see an author who I know writes and LOVES dubcon, I can't take them seriously when they bitch about stuff like Blurred Lines, etc. Because if you say a song "Totes contributes to rape culture," but then write stories featuring dubcon (and in the story it being A-OK) that young, impressionable people will be reading, you are a hypocrite.

Are you fucking for real? There is a vast difference between understanding you are writing dubcon and labeling it as such, and not understanding the meaning of consent. If an author writes dubcon without realizing it is dubcon, then, yes, I too would take issue with that. But if an author writes dubcon, realizes they write dubcon, and calls out others for not understanding consent, then how is that hypocritical? Others may have different definitions of "contributing to rape culture," but I think if you understand that what you are writing is about rape and you label it as such, then you are informing others of that fact and not contributing to "rape culture" by obscuring or misunderstanding the act that is occurring.

Because the authors label their fic as dubcon but then present dubcon as something that is ok. they are going "Well one of those guys was coerced into having sex because of [insert blackmail here]. BUT he ended up enjoying it, so it is cool and they will fall in love."

What you never see is "Well this guy was coerced to have sex. And physically he responded to what was happening. But this is rape. RAPE. This is NON-consensual. This is not okay. And it should not be seen as such."

Labeling something as dub-con (really dubcon would be rape in the real world) does not mean that suddently young people are not going to absorb the idea that those kinds of things are acceptable.

Not to be nit-picking, but there's a difference between dubcon and noncon. To me, and to a lot of other people.

Being coerced (physically or merely emotionally) into sex and not enjoying it (regardless of whether your body is reacting) is rape and should be labelled as such (or as noncon).

Dubcon on the other hand is usually written as that blurry line that includes two drunk people having sex, persuasion where they both enjoy it once they get going, etc. I personally wouldn't consider two equally inebriated people fucking each other rape, even if there's the chance they wouldn't have done it sober. That's where the dubious comes in. It's not that it IS unconsented, it's more of a warning that some people could see it that way, or that in a different situation it might be.

And none of fics I've read that are labelled dubcon (or noncon) have ever been touted by the author as "This is totally awesome and right and everyone should endorse this."

The whole point of a dubcon tag is to let readers know that the issue of consent in that fic is/could be considered dubious in real world settings. That this is probably something you shouldn't be doing.

I don't think properly labelled rapefic is contributing to rape culture if it's written with genuine repercussions. I wrote a fic that involved kidnapping, rape, and borderline stockholm syndrome. That doesn't mean I think any of those things are okay, and that's the way they were treated in that fic. That those were BAD THINGS being done by a BAD PERSON. There was no happy ending, no rape-is-love, no ~they secretly liked it~.

BUt that is the thing, most dubcon fic (which again in the real world would be considered RAPE) is not written with genuine repercussions. And I am not saying authors can't write it, I am just saying if you do don't act like you have some kind of moral high ground in regards to media that might "influence rape culture".

because regardless of how you label it, it is still rape that is presented as okay. And young people are still going to consume it and be influenced by it (even if it has a one word tag of dubcon).

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(Anonymous) - 2014-06-14 00:07 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-06-14 00:20 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-06-14 00:51 (UTC) - Expand

Well, for some people rape ending in happily ever after is a type of story they like. The "okay"ness of it within the story is part of the appeal. Is a "dubcon" not enough indication that the author knows writing a story where it's okay isn't the same as saying if the same thing really happens to a real person it's okay?

If it's "rape with a happy ending," call it "rape with a happy ending." Or "'non con' with a happy ending," if that's what you insist on labeling rape now.

Dubcon has two definitions - scenarious involving dubious consent, and "rape with a happy ending," where nothing is dubious whatsoever.

Why people insist on using the dubcon tag for the latter scenario baffles and frustrates me.

But that's...sort of the genre. It can be acceptable in-universe.

I agree the whole "dubcon" concept IS fiction, because in r/l it's generally either consensual or it's not.I guess there could be cases where both parties go "what the hell did we just do", but fact is "dubcon" isn't really a real word term.

But that's sort of the point of it - you write people's motivations in a certain way, where it makes sense in-universe IN FICTION.

To be fair, I'd basically call all sexual contact where both parties are equally drunk as "dubious consent" - and that happens quite often.

Where are these "most authors"? I haven't seen a single author call their fic of dubcon being "totally awesome and okay irl too". You are trying to mix freaking kinks from kink memes with real life. It doesn't really work out like that. Dubcon is mostly a fanfiction term to warn the readers that while it's not outright rape, there's still some questionable consent going on. Non-con is outright rape, dub-con has blurred lines. I like to browse kink memes but I do not read stuff which is labeled as non-con. However, I read dubcon (while being fully aware of the consent issues mind you). Heck, most of my favorite pairing are villain/hero ones so there's pretty much always some dubious things going on. Still doesn't mean it has to be outright rape though. This is why I really like that there is this "dubcon" label. Makes it easy to find fics which aren't totally out from my comfort zone.

And oh... just giving an example of dubcon in these said hero/villains pairings:

In one of them a hero solved a situation by using sex as a weapon. The villain hadn't made any moves towards her before that but when she showed her (fake) interest, he answered, not knowing it was just an act. In reality the hero wasn't interested but kept the mask on and slept with him in order to surprise him. And she succeeded.

While this scenario indeed has some dubious things going on, you can not call it actual rape. Because both of them kind of consented but in truth she only did it in order to gain something else and the villain got fooled into thinking she was attracted to him. For these type of things it's excellent to have a tag for dub-con.

I don't know that it's fair to hold the author accountable for young, impressionable people reading fics that are M-rated. And as long as they're making it clear that what's going on ISN'T consent, tbh I think that's a good thing - people can see and go "oh this isn't consent" and understand that better (assuming you're writing it well).

Also, how is this any different than original authors writing dark things like rape and dubcon in their work? Or do you have an issue with that too?

DA

I'm not disagreeing with the basic idea that people are influenced by the media they absorb. That's self-evidently true. But the idea that we ought to modify any and all creative works so they present the 'correct' attitude is incredibly wrongheaded. Writers do not have an obligation to toe some moral line, lest vulnerable minds be led astray. In the end we all have a responsibility as individuals to critique and question the stories we're told, and nobody is born knowing how to do that. We were all easily influenced young people, once.

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(Anonymous) - 2014-06-13 23:54 (UTC) - Expand

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kallanda_lee - 2014-06-14 00:07 (UTC) - Expand

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siofrabunnies - 2014-06-14 00:20 (UTC) - Expand

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diet_poison - 2014-06-14 00:53 (UTC) - Expand

Ok, that is a good point about dubcon. Hm.

Now I'm wondering why people use the dubcon label instead of non-con.

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(Anonymous) - 2014-06-14 01:33 (UTC) - Expand

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diet_poison - 2014-06-14 16:23 (UTC) - Expand

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kallanda_lee - 2014-06-14 06:58 (UTC) - Expand

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diet_poison - 2014-06-14 16:24 (UTC) - Expand

What do you mean by A-OK- do you think this even if they tag for dub-con and have an obvious dub-con kink? Impressionable young people have sexual fantasies, they're capable of understanding the difference between that and RL rape. And if they don't a tag pointing out that it's non-consensual might help them along.

fwiw, I agree. People are way too fucking eager to defend the fact they get off to the idea of rape.

What really bugs me is how they make it sound cuter with terms like noncon and dubcon.

"But calling it rape makes it not sexy anymore."

Except for how those terms actually have a more explicit meaning than rape does when talking about fiction. Noncon just means non-consensual, and is not necessarily referring to non-consensual sex, although that is the most common use. It can also apply to brainwashing and blackmail, and things of that nature. Dubious consent just means consent isn't explicitly stated or given or possible, but it may be.

They're very useful labels, all things considered.

+1. "Rape culture is real and harmful and needs to be abolished--except where my boner is affected." Hypocrisy at its finest!

What about rape fantasies though? If you (figuratively) are someone who gets off on a rape fantasy roleplay, it's not saying you condone rape or that real rape is okay, or even that you don't know that rape is wrong.

How is it hypocrisy to say, "Look, in a real world situation if this happened it would be Not Okay, but this is something that gets me off sexually."? They're not advocating rape. They're not saying 'go out and rape people, it's all good, they'll like it eventually!'.

They're saying that they have a particular kink that they know is not something that they would really want to happen to them, so they engage in it in a controlled environment.

Then don't call it rape fantasy. The moment you give enthusiastic consent to something, it cannot be rape, by definition.

I think the wording is important. "But women have rape fantasies!" is used as an excuse by way too many scummy people, and even to non-scummy individuals, it cements the idea that sometimes rape is ok, because it's not like society at large views rape as seriously as it should. And I really don't get why ppl fight so hard to keep such a nasty term on for their kink.