[ SECRET POST #366 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #366 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU'RE GOING TO USE MSPAINT USE A BACKGROUND COLOR, PLEAAAASE

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 252 secrets from Secret Submission Post #053.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, January 7th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

11. You could almost say it's twincest!

14. Sounds like you need to get your eyes checked.

People are free to hold their own opinions, of course. But please try and convince me how Vayne's whole "blame it on the Senate" tactic to get himself into power is original or interesting in ANY way? Compared to what this same team did with Vagrant Story and Final Fantasy Tactics, FFXII's story can't even compare.

I'd love to hear your arguments for how tacked-on Vaan and Penelo got anything that can be called "development." With the exception of a few of his scenes with Ashe, Vaan doesn't really show any sort of change. Heck, they had to make Revenant Wings just to justify the poor kid's existence.

Oh well, it's nice to see someone who enjoyed this game for a reason other than the fact that it has "Final Fantasy" in its title.

[parron.livejournal.com]

XD IAWTC.

As wanky as I'm sure that makes me.

Cliche isn't bad, per say, but cliche + no characterization + annoying battle system + muddy plot + super pretentious all together... that does equal bad. Also, the recording quality of the voice acting bugged me.

...A friend of mine - and I am inclined to agree - once described FF12 as "that pretty blonde in a cute red mini dress." She's soooo pretty and seems nice so you want to talk to her, hit on her, get to know her... but then you do and you realize that her head is completely empty and she's actually just a shallow idiot.

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

Then FFVIII has to be the high schooler that is trying to be different and just comes off as a shallow emo kid. I liked FFXII because it didn't seem like a teenager's escape from the real world fantasy.

[parron.livejournal.com]

I would have liked 12 if it wasn't so damned pretentious about itself. One of the reasons I liked 10, for example, was that it didn't take itself too seriously - sure, it was serious, but it wasn't pretentious about what was going on. 12 was OMG SO IMPORTANT.

And in itself, that isn't even so bad - the problem being, like that pretty little blonde girl, there's nothing there to back up it's good looks.

The story might not have been bad--but it was muddy and badly executed. The characters might have been interesting - but they ended up flat and undeveloped and, by in large, completely irrelevant. And so on. I mean, the story was badly executed enough that it had to stop several times so that a narrator could dump exposition down our throats. And I'm sorry. But any story that needs that just to be understood... isn't a good story.

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

I loved its pretentiousness and how it takes itself so seriously. I'm a fan of the Ivalice games, and how they are all serious and that.

I also loved many of the main characters. Of course, most of them were older or from Archadia, but I've always loved the more mature characters, and political intrigue pulls me in. Drace was so unique to me, something new in the FF series. Ashe took no shit from anyone, Basch had the usual tragic past but didn't let it bear him down or deter him from his mission of protecting Ashe, and Balthier was totally suave for me (but I think Squall and Cloud are annoying, so take this with a grain of salt).

I do admit that there were times I desperately wished for more plot development, but the plot development that would have happened wouldn't have been my thing anyway, so I just turned to fic.

One of those exposition moments you probably didn't like - Balthier revealing to Ashe where he came from when they were on the Phon Coast - was one of the ones I loved the most. In the background, Vaan and Penelo are just oblivious to the import of what's going on politically, and Basch is taking a moment to chillax with them, and Ashe and Balthier look on, Ashe always thinking of her duty and Balthier realizing he's returning to his past and finally having to confront his father. There's a lot going on in that scene.

[parron.livejournal.com]

In terms of exposition I was thinking specifically of the ACTUAL EXPOSITION DUMPS. Not characters talking to one another, but the screen fading to black and a narrator explaining to the audience what was doing on.

That = Bad storytelling. And that's all it is.

Personally? Penelo was boring and pointless, Vaan was Tidus lite, Basch was total cliche (probably my favorite, but we've seen him many times before). Balthier was totally irritating and "charming" in the way that he wasn't. Ashe was interesting because she was so intentionally dislikable, and Fran was... a sixth member of the party, much like Penelo was a fifth. Cliche and boring - it's like the game decided to remove actual personality and hope that the absence would make them seem more "mature" and "cool."

Age of the characters has nothing at all to do with it. Obviously my opinion is just as subjective as yours, so there's really no point in either of us bringing it up as "proof."

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

In terms of exposition I was thinking specifically of the ACTUAL EXPOSITION DUMPS. Not characters talking to one another, but the screen fading to black and a narrator explaining to the audience what was doing on.

Ah, okay! That's a thing with the Ivalice games - FF Tactics is the same. *shrugs* I don't mind it. But again, different strokes for different folks. I see it as an atmospheric thing, as the narrator is an NPC and seeing it from his perspective is interesting.

I don't like Vaan and Penelo at all, but I accept that I'm not going to like everyone, and just like with characters I don't like I just tend to ignore them.

[(Anonymous)]

I left my complaints about the battle system out since I think that's more of a matter of preference than anything else. But yes, that's really the MAIN reason I despise this game. I find it odd that people seem to love having control ripped from them. It pissed me off, to tell the truth.

The audio for the voices was compressed, I believe. I guess the zomg!AMAZING graphics just took up too much space on the disc :p

Not like a game needs depth if it's a big-name titles *sighs* I used to be a huge Final Fantasy fan until XII woke me up to the truth of what the series has become.

[parron.livejournal.com]

I definitely believe it's a matter of opinion, but--come on! I like playing games, not watching them play themselves, you know? What really bugged me was when I first mentioned it, all my friends said, "WELL JUST TURN THE GAMBITS OFF." The problem being that the game totally wasn't designed that way and became horridly clunky when I tried. >__>


The audio for the voices was compressed, I believe. I guess the zomg!AMAZING graphics just took up too much space on the disc :p


That's what I heard, too. And to be fair, I don't recall any of the voice acting itself as bad - it was just terribly hard to listen to because the quality was so low.

It was a very pretty game, though. I will never argue that. Lovely graphics all around.


I think my main problem with 12 was really that they just tried SO HARD to make it deep and important and meaningful, and completely buckled under it all. Someone else commented a few pages down that 12, thematically, is a lot like 9 - which is a brilliant example, because it rings so much of truth. The difference being that 9 didn't take itself terribly seriously and so was actually a good game.

With depth and everything!

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

I guess the zomg!AMAZING graphics just took up too much space on the disc :p I know you're just mocking, but I found it really cool how there was almost no FMV. Most of the cutscenes with with actual characters used the real-time engine. Don't ask me why the scant FMVs were used on airships and the like though.

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

I believe that the Ivalice team wanted to do a lot more with FFXII, but had to conform to FF series cliches. Vaan? Likely got pushed into the position he did because Square demanded a teenaged boy in the lead. I heard that Basch was originally to be the main character. Vayne? Totally could have been made something more, but wasn't allowed to have the development he should have had.

But I do believe the game superior to FFVII, FFVIII and FFX. Then again, I don't keep my dislike for most of Nomura's characters secret, either.

[(Anonymous)]

FFVIII wasn't really a shining example of story-telling anyway.

I've heard the same rumor about Basch being the main character. If it's true that Square imposed these restrictions on them, then I suppose I should cut the game more slack. But why would they restrict Vayne's development?

And what makes Nomura characters worse than any other character? For god's sakes, he just DESIGNS them. Yoshinori Kitase is the director of most of those games if I remember right. Hold your gripes with him or the scenario writer, not the character designer.

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

And what makes Nomura characters worse than any other character? For god's sakes, he just DESIGNS them. Yoshinori Kitase is the director of most of those games if I remember right. Hold your gripes with him or the scenario writer, not the character designer.

His characters fall into similar stereotypes in almost every Nomura-designed game, and if it's the scenario writer or director that demands it every time, then he gets a pass, but many of those stereotypes are absent in the Amano and Yoshida games. But Vincent/Auron quiet, tragic bishie, Yuffie/Selphie/Rikku (people try to group Penelo in there, but she's been hit by the cluestick and seems to have a lot more common sense than these 3), Cloud/Squall emo, Aeris/Rinoa/Yuna gentle, soft girl...

Well, okay, I'm a bit sick of his art style too. I prefer Basch's potholder anyway. ;) But to each their own!

[parron.livejournal.com]

But Vincent/Auron quiet, tragic bishie, Yuffie/Selphie/Rikku (people try to group Penelo in there, but she's been hit by the cluestick and seems to have a lot more common sense than these 3), Cloud/Squall emo, Aeris/Rinoa/Yuna gentle, soft girl...

Basch/Balthier the tragic/quiet bishie, Fran the fanservice, Ashe the emo boy, Vaan the cheerful thief, Penelo the young fanservice/gentle soft magic user.... yes, 12 is really far from those stereotypes!

Personally? Here's what I think. There is no clue stick that needs to hit Rikku et all - she's a smart girl. But since there's more to her personality than the fact that she's perceptive and intelligent (perhaps not in a book sense, but there's more than one kind in the world), it's easy to ignore. Penelo? No personality to speak of, so, "oh! she's smart!" becomes better praise for her.

I really despise people that put down one character to elevate another like that. Every character in every FF ever is a stereotype to a degree - some more so than others, granted. But to claim that 12 has the only mature, unique characters? It's fine that you like them, but don't be silly about it.

[parron.livejournal.com]

We're not talking about, "FF12 where Basch was the main character and Vayne had more development," we're talking about the game that was made and we actually played. You can't say "it was supposed to be like this!" as an example of proof why the game is good. Even if it was meant to be that way - I have heard that rumor as well - the fact is that it wasn't.

So as interesting as the idea is - and I think it sounds like the game would have been much better with both - it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And I agree with the anon about character designer vs. director. If you don't like how Nomura draws, hey, that's something we can discuss. But he doesn't actually create the characterizations.

[(Anonymous)]

I was under the impression Nomura has some sort of say and influence in the actual character development, beyond drawing them.

Like, I try to imagine how Squall would have developed without that fur -lined jacket, or if Tidus actually wore pants instead of those mismatched things...

[parron.livejournal.com]

He does, but I think only to a degree? I remember that he said that for Tidus, he was given a list that included things like "foreign looking" and "an athlete," and that in FF8 he was surprised when they made Quistis a teacher based on her character design.

[shahrizai.livejournal.com]

I was surfing the IGN message boards one day and someone had posted about how much more interesting the game would have been if Al-Cid was the main guy instead of Vaan. I heartily agree!

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

Oh God, thank you. FF Tactics is by far my favourite FF game and the re-release is basically the reason I'm getting a PSP. I was unbelievably stoked when I heard that XII would be done by the Tactics team.

But man, disappointment on a stick. Though it wasn't nearly as bad as Tactics Advance, at least *shudder* The plot I was okay with (though I'll admit that I only got about 10 hours into the game), but the battle system was basically just an offline MMORPG and to make it even worse, the characters were incredibly similar (gameplay-wise. The open-ended license board meant all the characters were essentially the same).

I liked that FFXII was hard, but when it comes to RPGs, there are really two kinds of hard - hard in that you have to strategize (like Xenosaga or Digital Devil Saga) or hard in that you have to grind levels. XII was the latter, and it only added to the 'offline MMORPG' effect.

I think the Gambit system would have been a fantastic idea if XII were an action-RPG instead. AI control seems really pointless when you can do the same thing through menus. :/

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I'm guessing you missed the whole point of Vayne trying to gain power to free the world from the clutches of the Occuria. Compared to other FF villains like Sephiroth who was completely insane and wanted to take over the world, I fail to see how Vayne's objectives were NOT interesting. He was more of a misguided villain that outright evil, and that kind of villain is interesting to me. And I haven't played Vagrant Story, but Tactics bores me to tears. And not because of the tactics part of it because that was actually fun.

Vaan progressed a lot in the story, in my opinion. He overcame his brother's death by confronting Basch and learning the truth about what happened. Later on, he finally realized why he was on the journey with Ashe, to find his own purpose. It may be small and it happened quickly, but it's still development. I will admit that Penelo has little development, but she's mainly there because Vaan is.

Of course, this is all my personal opinion. It's just how I see the game and it appeals to me.