[ SECRET POST #3030 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3030 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #433.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Actually in some cultures, it is. In Danish, it has a lot of connections to anti-semetic slurs. Plus just as many people in the thread have pointed out, there is a lot of history with trash and trashy being applied to racial and class problems. From Trailer Trash to saying certain POC are trash and should go back to their own countries. Latin@ people are especially prone to getting this.

[(Anonymous)]

Whether or not trash (or whatever Danish translation) is a slur in Danish, that doesn't have much relevance to a discussion that's (at least implicitly) about terminology in English. That is an interesting fact, though.

there is a lot of history with trash and trashy being applied to racial and class problems. From Trailer Trash to saying certain POC are trash and should go back to their own countries. Latin@ people are especially prone to getting this.

Which is awful. But as I said to blitzy above, an insult that is used in a classist or racist way is not at all the same thing as a slur.

[blitzwing]

Which is awful. But as I said to blitzy above, an insult that is used in a classist or racist way is not at all the same thing as a slur.

Slur is not a strictly defined term, yet you refuse to even list your criteria for what makes something a slur, nor will you explain the reasoning behind your statements at all. You just go "it's not a slur, it's not a slur" over and over again.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there has to be a degree of specificity for something to justify being called a slur. Part of the concept of something being a slur, to me, is that the hurtfulness and the privilege is inextricable from the use the term at all. Like, the very fact that anon listed like three different ways "trash" gets used as an insult - for distinct groups - makes it difficult for me to take seriously the idea that it's a slur. It's a negative word that sometimes gets used in insults. Those are different.

And I don't think it's really an academic difference, either. It's kind of central to the whole argument. The significance of calling something a slur is that (if you are a reasonable, decent person) you'll try to avoid using slurs because of the ineradicable associations the word has. Whereas if something's not a slur, I think one can justifiably use it if it's in a context that's divorced from the harmful interpretations, which is my position on this one.

[blitzwing]

The significance of calling something a slur is that (if you are a reasonable, decent person) you'll try to avoid using slurs because of the ineradicable associations the word has

So when someone says "there was a really trashy lady in here earlier" that doesn't bring certain characteristics to mind? That adjective means nothing to you, and has no associations? You don't picture certain things, certain clothing, mannerisms, or behavior with that at all?

[(Anonymous)]

All adjectives have meanings...

[blitzwing]

Oh, is it pretend to be obtuse night? I thought that was Thursday.

You know what I am asking. What does the word "trashy" and "piece of trash" bring to your mind, when it's applied to human beings like in the example sentence above? That doesn't have certain associations for you?

[(Anonymous)]

They have different associations depending on the person... Trashy can mean what you're implying it always means, but I frequently hear it used to describe people who inappropriately or immodestly display their wealth and/or make frequent derogatory comments. "Piece of trash" can refer to what you're convinced it refers to, or it can refer to someone of any class who behaves in a morally reprehensible way. Have you never heard an affluent murderer, for example, be referred to as a piece of trash?

It's okay to not like a word. You don't have to try and make it problematic in order to justify your dislike.

[blitzwing]

"Piece of trash" can refer to what you're convinced it refers to, or it can refer to someone of any class who behaves in a morally reprehensible way.

Yeah, and non-black people who have acted in a "morally reprehensible way" get called the N word by some people. Does that mean the N word isn't a racial slur?

No.

[(Anonymous)]

lol wut

[blitzwing]

What part do you not understand? You said that a murderous millionare can be called a piece of trash. Likewise, a white or Asian person could be called the N word.

In the latter case, the N word being used on a non-black person does not magically transform it from being a racial slur. Likewise, using a classist slur on a millionaire doesn't mean it's still not a classist slur.

[(Anonymous)]

There is - certainly to me, and I think to most speakers of English - a huge difference in those usages of those words. I think most people would understand calling someone who's not black the n-word is a reference to blackness. I don't think, frankly - at least in any place that I'm familiar with - the same is at all true with the word "trash" and being low-class.

[blitzwing]

I think most people would understand calling someone who's not black the n-word is a reference to blackness

No, they wouldn't, because when someone calls a white person the N word, they're not referencing literal blackness. They're referencing all the negative stereotypes associated with blackness and that word.

Just like when you call a millionaire murderer trash, you're invoking certain stereotypes associated with the poor--criminality, lawlessness, loose morals.

[(Anonymous)]

DA. This really strikes me as a false equivalency.

Trash has several different meanings, and some of those meanings have absolutely nothing to do with the poor.

The N-word is not a comparable situation in the slightest.

[blitzwing]

I'll just paste from my other comment because it addresses all of this.

Trash has several different meanings, and some of those meanings have absolutely nothing to do with the poor.

Do you think a banana is always a fruit, and is never a slur against Asians? A crow is just a bird, never a racial term, frog is always an amphibian and not a slur meaning a French person, kimchi and kraut have no ethnic connotations, and neither does the word oreo?

Your argument here seems to be "it has other meanings so it can't be a slur".

[(Anonymous)]

Well, of course. It's a word. It has a meaning and it has a wealth of connotation and references.

I don't think that its meaning is limited to any one set of connotations. A classist or sexist or whatever meaning is one of the sets of connotations that it has, but I don't think it's the only one, and I don't think it rules out the word being used differently, in a different context.

(And also I'd say - tho it doesn't mean anything at all being the definition of ancedotal - that my personal assumptions in the scenario you're talking about wouldn't have much to do with class at all)

[blitzwing]

my personal assumptions in the scenario you're talking about wouldn't have much to do with class at all

Uh huh. Which is why you've been so forthcoming about what image that sentence paints in your mind.

Here's what I'm seeing anon: yet another spoiled, class-privileged arsehole who will attempt to use use any hair-splitting or weasel words they can to get out of owning up to the fact that they're using a word that hurts and oppresses a group of marginalized and stereotyped people.

Who won't admit that they have no fucking clue what it's like to be poor lower class, and how that word impacts lower class people.

Who finds their right to keep using a slur as much as they like, more important than making fandom a welcoming place to lower-class fans.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, uh, I disagree, obviously, and I don't think you're seeing correctly. But I also doubt that there's anything I can do to convince you you're wrong, except agree with you, and I don't agree with you, so I think we find ourselves at an impasse.

Listen, I'm completely serious, I really do respect your feelings here. But... it's a common English word, and the meaning it's being given here is clearly distinct from the meaning you're talking about. It's not used in a way that's an attack on anyone, when someone talks about the trash party. I'm sorry that you associate it with bad shit. But I don't think that's universalizable to it being a bad word in general, sorry.

[blitzwing]

Well, uh, I disagree, obviously, and I don't think you're seeing correctly.

Are you or are you not class-privileged?

But... it's a common English word, and the meaning it's being given here is clearly distinct from the meaning you're talking about.

You can say a thing, it doesn't make it true.

It's not used in a way that's an attack on anyone, when someone talks about the trash party.

And when rich college kids dress up and have a Hobo Party, or a Thug Party, or a "“Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos” party, it's not intended as an attack on someone either. So, it's not classist or racist then, according to you?

I'm sorry that you associate it with bad shit. But I don't think that's universalizable to it being a bad word in general, sorry.

Thanks for making my point, over and over again.YOU as a class-privileged person don't associate it with classism, so it's not classist! Oh thank God, the rich kid doesn't think it's classist, so it's not classist. Thank you, rich kid, for telling us lower class people what is and isn't discriminatory against us. YOU would know best, wouldn't you?

[(Anonymous)]

sorry blitzy but i'm not just going to agree with whatever you say, man. i think we just disagree.

you can keep calling me privileged if you want, though

You can say a thing, it doesn't make it true.

Okay, please outline for me how saying "I'm such [pairing] trash" is clearly and objectively a reference to the use of trash as an insult for the lower class, because I in no way see it. it seems divorced from that specific context.

And when rich college kids dress up and have a Hobo Party, or a Thug Party, or a "“Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos” party, it's not intended as an attack on someone either. So, it's not classist or racist then, according to you?

if you can draw out the ways in which identifying as hydra trash reinforces stereotypes or turns a specific example of oppression into a theme for a party - the way you clearly and directly and unmistakeably can in all of those examples - you might have something

but i'm at a loss to see it

which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, it's certainly possible that i'm wrong, but i can't see any compelling arguments on the other side, and as a result, i think that i'm right

[blitzwing]

Wow, what a nice long paragraph of weasel words. You haven't said anything with even a drop of substance.

you can keep calling me privileged if you wan

Because you are, or you'd just say "No, I'm lower class" or "No, my family is blue collar". You stay mum on the issue of whether you're class-privileged because you are, and when you're called on it, you try to evade the issue by going "well you can call me that if you want".

if you can draw out the ways in which identifying as hydra trash reinforces stereotypes or turns a specific example of oppression into a theme for a party

Nice goal-post shifting. We went from "a slur must invoke certain associations" and when I hit that goal, you created a new one for me. Now using the slur the way the Tumblr kids do has to reinforce a stereotype for it to be an issue.

I guess that means you're totally cool with slurs being used, so long as they're not reinforcing stereotypes? Wow.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Maybe don't bring up hobo and thug parties if you don't want to explain how they're similar to hydra trash party?

[(Anonymous)]

Because you are, or you'd just say "No, I'm lower class" or "No, my family is blue collar". You stay mum on the issue of whether you're class-privileged because you are, and when you're called on it, you try to evade the issue by going "well you can call me that if you want".

i wouldn't say regardless of my personal class background, as i don't think it's relevant.

Nice goal-post shifting. We went from "a slur must invoke certain associations" and when I hit that goal, you created a new one for me. Now using the slur the way the Tumblr kids do has to reinforce a stereotype for it to be an issue.

it's not goalpost shifting it all. it's a restatement of my previous goalpost. because you responded to that one by essentially saying "No, that's not true, you're wrong" and nothing more. so i asked you to explain precisely how i was wrong. which i would still like to see you do.

i'm sure that you disagree. but i really hope you can make some substantive disagreement, because just arguing over who won / who is more of a shitfucker is a really goddamn pointless debate to have, and that's all we seem to be doing at the moment.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, please outline for me how saying "I'm such [pairing] trash" is clearly and objectively a reference to the use of trash as an insult for the lower class, because I in no way see it.

"trash" has a well-known cultural background of being used as an insulting method of referral to lower-class/poor people in the us. trailer trash, white trash, calling poc or immigrants trash, these are all extremely common and well-known things. if you call a person trash, those are what most people will think of first. the adjective "trashy" implies a lack of class or decorum, things which tend to be associated with the poor, true or not.

it's not a positive term when used in reference to human beings and brings to mind negative stereotypes in the minds of most people.

[(Anonymous)]

yes, i'm not pretending it's a positive word. it's an insult, of course it's an insult, and it's used to insult all sorts of people in all sorts of ways. it's a negative word.

what i'm arguing against is that it's a slur against a specific group, or more broadly, against the idea that it is morally wrong to talk about (for instance) "Hydra Trash Party" because its use in such a way is attempting to reclaim a word that is specifically a slur against lower class people. and it can't be used in a way that's divorced from that association, and if you're using it, it's classist.

if it was a "Hydra White Trash Party" or a "Hydra Trailer Trash Party" i could certainly see your point of view...