fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3420 ]

OP, you say that aro/ace people aren't the ones in the most need of representation right now. I'm curious to know why you think this.

I'm aro/ace, and personally I've never particularly wanted representation (for other aro/ace people's sake, yes, but for my own personal sake, I'm just not interested). That said, I'm also not sure I consider ace people less in need of representation than LGB people (as opposed to about equal).

Though I am open to hearing civil arguments about why that is not the case. Like if, for example, someone believed that more fictional LGB representation would make horrible, homophobic "religious freedom" bills less likely to pass, then that would be a very good argument for why having fictional LGB representation in the media is more important right now than having asexual representation. I'm just not personally convinced that fictional representation will have much impact on things like government legislation.

you're a moron if you think there's no correlation between positive portrayal of lgbt people in the media and society's views. positive gay characters aren't going to be the only factor in determining some sort of gay legislation, but they will allow people to feel comfortable in coming out (esp celebs and polticians who have influence) and help to create an environment in which lgbt people have more rights, protections, and people are less discriminatory toward them.

literally no one gives a fuck about aroace people outside of, like, tumblr lol. they're not facing mass harassment, discrimination, or even murder and imprisonment in less liberal countries (although it still happens in "liberal" countries as well).

seriously, aroace people make dumbass comments like this and then wonder why lgbt people are annoyed with them.

You're not being civil, which is the one stipulation I made when it comes to listening to arguments on this matter. However, because it's an important issue, I read past your insults and your general incivility.

You say aro/ace people aren't harassed or discriminated against, but we very much are. In fact, every aro/ace person I know on a peron-to-person basis has been sworn at, called names, and otherwise shamed on more than one occasion, due to their sexuality. In leading asexuality researcher Anthony Bogaert's book, Understanding Asexuality, he says asexuals appear to face easily as much harassment as LGB people do, though it does not always take exactly the same form as LGB harassment does.

Here's a good article where Bogeart addresses, among other things, community reactions towards asexuality: http://www.universityaffairs.ca/features/feature-article/asexuals-the-group-that-kinsey-forgot/

I'm not interested in playing the discrimination olympics, and I will cede the title for worse sustained discrimination and harassment to LGB people with zero argument. For numerous complex reasons I believe LGB people have it worse, I genuinely do. But I think the kind of discrimination and harassment aro/ace people face in such a massive volume is exactly the kind of discrimination and harassment media representation is so good at combating. It's discrimination and harassment born first and foremost out of ignorance and a lack of exposure.

This is a time when people feel it's totally okay to say extremely judgmental, dismissive, insensitive, and ignorant things like, "literally no one gives a fuck about aroace people," and make insulting generalizations about us, like, "aroace people make dumbass comments." Do you not see how - for lack of a better term - acephobic that is? And to argue that ace/aro people don't need more representation, when so many people think it's completely okay to insult, dismiss, disavow, and otherwise belittle ace/aro people? That's just...blind, close-minded, and wrong.

Should we make fighting against horrifying homophobic legislation a priority? Yes, a thousand times over. Making sure people don't get killed or denied their rights is far more important (if we must place them on a hierarchy of importance) than stopping the deluge of smaller discriminatory and harassing attitudes and behaviors that BOTH aro/ace and LGB people face on a day-to-day basis.

So if you want to argue that fictional representation can stop the ideology turning behind the political machinery turning behind that hateful legislation, and can prevent brutal hate crimes, then okay, I hear your argument. That should be a priority.

But for my money, I think what fictional media representation does best is shine a light on issues that otherwise sane, moderate individuals have little knowledge and experience of. It gets people, on the individual level, to be a little more comfortable and open-minded about things they simply had very little exposure to before. And that's something I think BOTH aro/ace and LGB people could do with a fair amount of.

Oh my god, fuck off. I'm aro/ace and not a single bad thing has ever happened to me because of it. We do not face harassment or discrimination (except for the kind that straight people can face too, like sexist harassment etc). I know you're desperate to be oppressed, but this is just embarrassing.

The fact is, only maybe one in five people who find out I'm ace respond badly, and probably only one in twenty get overly offensive about it, and and probably only one in fifty resort to vicious insults. But that still amounts to a couple of really bad experiences and a bunch of kind of crappy ones, along with the totally okay ones and the very positive ones.

That's the the reality of it.

I'm glad you've had only positive experiences as an ace/aro person, but I wish you would stop trying to use your positive experience to invalidate other ace/aro people who have been less fortunate. It's extremely insensitive and small-minded of you.

If only one in fifty people responds that negatively, and you seriously don't understand why you have it a million times better than any gay person does, I think you are the one who's insensitive and small-minded.

Yeah, as opposed to the maybe one in ten who just tell me I don't exist. Maybe half of which do it extremely rudely, but informing me I'm deluded, or implying I just have daddy issues or whatnot.

Honestly, I prefer it when they jump right to "frigid bitch." That way at least I know what I'm dealing with.

But you know, I've noticed that for the most part, you're not actually engaging with me. From the beginning I've done you the courtesy of addressing your points directly and civilly (if not fondly), despite your efforts to couch those points in insults. Yet you have not extended me the same courtesy. You're just spitting out ignorance - have been since the start.

So yeah, I think I've had my fill for the day.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-16 02:02 (UTC) - Expand

"Bad things have never happened to me therefore they must not happen!!"

Ok.

you know what? i had a ginger friend who was made fun of a lot during school. however, being made fun of doesn't mean you face systematic discrimination. lots of people think ace people are weirdos for not wanting sex. i'm not denying that. however, people thinking you're kind of weird isn't the same thing as fearing for your life, fearing losing your job, and fearing being kicked out of your house which is a fear many lgbt kids face.

This is a time when people feel it's totally okay to say extremely judgmental, dismissive, insensitive, and ignorant things like, "literally no one gives a fuck about aroace people," and make insulting generalizations about us, like, "aroace people make dumbass comments." Do you not see how - for lack of a better term - acephobic that is? And to argue that ace/aro people don't need more representation, when so many people think it's completely okay to insult, dismiss, disavow, and otherwise belittle ace/aro people? That's just...blind, close-minded, and wrong.

I wasn't being dismissive and judgmental when I said that, even though I purposely phrased it in a mean way. I'm just stating what I see is a fact. No one gives a fuck about aroace people, and, as a lesbian, I would kill for that. I would kill to not have to hear about politicians complaining about "the homosexual" or hear people around me talking about "gross dykes."

People all around the world find same gender attraction disgusting to the point where they want to kill gay people, create legislation that denies their rights, and spread propaganda about us. This is a systematic problem. As for aroace people, people just find them kind of weird or prude-ish. If your worst problem is people thinking you're odd for not wanting to fuck people, then you really don't have it too bad.

In your first comment, you said that you didn't see why gay representation was more important than aroace representation. Of course I would be annoyed. Gay representation is IMMENSELY more important than aroace representation. If people start getting murdered for not wanting to have sex or relationships with people, then hit me up, I guess, but, until then, lgbt representation is way more important.

Would aroace representation be good? Sure. But there's no systematic "acephobia" that you speak of. The fact that I made a blanket statement about aroace people is comparable to me generalizing jocks. Kinda douchey? Sure. All that harmful? Nah, not really.

But there's no systematic "acephobia" that you speak of. The fact that I made a blanket statement about aroace people is comparable to me generalizing jocks. Kinda douchey? Sure. All that harmful? Nah, not really.

I don't have the energy to address your comment when this is where you're coming from. There will be no seeing eye to eye for us, if this is your viewpoint on aro/ace people and society. If your perspective were accurate, then I could discuss this with you and even agree with you. But it's not accurate - not for me, and not for the majority of other ace people I know in real life, or for many of the ace people I've known online. It's coming from a place of ignorance. I cannot possible know what your experience has been as a gay person. However, I respect your experience and do not feel the need to pass my own personal judgement on what it has or hasn't been. You do not give me that same respect. Therefore, we can't really have much to say to each other that won't go hopelessly amiss.

Characters who never get involved in a romantic or sexual relationship on screen, never have it as a priority, and aren't treated by the narrative as something that needs fixing aren't exactly novel. You can't take a step without tripping over one in some genres. People may think not wanting to be in a relationship/not wanting sex is weird, but they're not going to treat aro/ace people as subhuman, evil, or disgusting.

LGB characters, on the other hand, are still pretty rare if you're looking at anything other than LGB niche fiction. LGB people are also still told on a regular basis that we are, in fact, subhuman, evil, and disgusting for our sexualities, and heroic representations of people with our sexualities can help combat that for us, whether it influences the opinions of the bigots or not.

Characters who, because their part in the story is relatively small, are never explicitly established as being in or pursuing a romantic/sexual relationship are not novel...but they also aren't exactly what I would call representation. Or rather, those characters no more amount to representation for aro/ace people than they amount to representation for LGB people.

Main characters who are never explicitly established as being in or pursuing or having a general interest in a romantic/sexual relationship strike me as pretty darn novel, at least in the substantial amount of popular western media I consume.

People may think not wanting to be in a relationship/not wanting sex is weird, but they're not going to treat aro/ace people as subhuman, evil, or disgusting.

I have personally been treated as subhuman and disgusting by more than one person, upon their discover that I was ace/aro. I have not been treated as evil, but I have been called a fucking bitch a couple of times, which carries with it connotations of being a bad person.

LGB characters, on the other hand, are still pretty rare if you're looking at anything other than LGB niche fiction.

Personally, I have seen FAARRRRRR more LGB characters than I've seen ace/aro characters. With a bit of thinking I could probably count forty or fifty LGB characters I know of, whereas I can count...can I count any ace characters? Outside of fanfic interpretations? I feel like I have have seen one of two but I'm not really sure.

Look, honestly? From everything we can tell so far, it seems that ace/aro people comprise a significantly smaller percentage of the population than LGB people do. For that reason alone, I don't expect ace/aro people to get as much representation in the media. But a little bit of representation would be good. And as it stands, we get approximately none.

This makes me want to go write aro and ace characters.

Ugh, please don't.

Yes, Blitzwing!!! Please do!

Hahaha! The ridiculous thing is, I don't even enjoy stories where the main character is ace/aro (by which I mean fanfic, since that's about all there is out there right now). I just ended up heading up this conversation because it seemed like a worthwhile conversation, and because I don't actually believe that ace/aro representation is markedly less needed than LGB representation. I think they're both needed.

*shrugs*

However, I know plenty of ace/aro people who would be over the moon about someone expressing an urge to write ace/aro characters. So for their sake: yaassss! Woot! If you did that would be awesome! :)

We don't need representation, because we're not fucking oppressed. If someone called you a bitch, that's sexism not "acephobia" or w/e.

Can you please stop talking and go away.

Oh my god! I REMEMBER you, anon!!! You've showed up in a couple of these threads, saying the same exact thing almost down to the word. You have a very distinctive appearance; the chip on your shoulder is visible from a hundred yards. You should really buff that thing, or spackle it or something.

God, I wish I'd known it was you before I wasted all those words on you. I put some real thought and effort into that comment, too.

Welp, at least now it's out there for posterity.

lol, I've never said any of this stuff on f!s before.

Feel free to go on believing I'm the only person in the world who thinks you're full of shit, though.

So only oppressed people should ever appear on movies, TV and other media? Okay.

Only oppressed people need representation, and are being wronged in a real way when they don't get it. It's fine for creators to include asexual characters if they want to, but they aren't morally obligated to pander to aces any more than they're obligated to include "furry representation" or "model train enthusiast representation".

Being an asexual isn't like having a kink or a hobby. Like, at all.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-16 16:04 (UTC) - Expand

obviously DA

Thank you!

I have personally been treated as subhuman and disgusting by more than one person

Yep.

Personally, I have seen FAARRRRRR more LGB characters than I've seen ace/aro characters.

Me too. Having characters not interested in sex or relationships in some random obscure anime or sci fi book from the 70s that pretty much no one outside of a niche audience sees or reads really does not count. But turn on any show on any of the broadcast networks, any of the cable networks, and the majority of them have AT LEAST one gay character. NONE of them have a single asexual character.

From everything we can tell so far, it seems that ace/aro people comprise a significantly smaller percentage of the population than LGB people do. For that reason alone, I don't expect ace/aro people to get as much representation in the media. But a little bit of representation would be good. And as it stands, we get approximately none.

That's all I want. A little bit. But apparently that's way too much to ask for.

Thank you!

Thank you!

Sometimes all it takes is one other person to jump into the prickly conversation nobody wants to jump into, and say, "Yeah, me too."

Having characters not interested in sex or relationships in some random obscure anime or sci fi book from the 70s that pretty much no one outside of a niche audience sees or reads really does not count.

Haha! This! My father reads a lot of sci-fi and is always talking about it, but I read almost no sci-fi. So when I was writing my comment I was wondering whether sci-fi as a genre has some ace representation. But even if it does, obscure stuff just doesn't count on the same level as, say, prime time TV.

But turn on any show on any of the broadcast networks, any of the cable networks, and the majority of them have AT LEAST one gay character. NONE of them have a single asexual character.

Yeah, exactly! And it's not like I begrudge LGB people their representation. I'm happy for it, I enjoy seeing it, and I would really love to seem more main characters being LGB in the future. But, as you say, a little bit of inclusion in the pop-cultural narrative should not be too much for ace/aro people to ask for. Yet it's often treated as though it is.

Haha! This! My father reads a lot of sci-fi and is always talking about it, but I read almost no sci-fi. So when I was writing my comment I was wondering whether sci-fi as a genre has some ace representation. But even if it does, obscure stuff just doesn't count on the same level as, say, prime time TV.

Yeah, exactly. I feel like I've heard about some sci-fi stuff supposedly having ace/aro characters, but it's just not the same as the mainstream stuff with a widespread audience.

No matter what genre someone likes, they can find a show, on a major network, with gay characters, that's well-known and popular enough that they can find plenty of other fans of that show to discuss it with. The same thing can't be said for ace/aro characters.

Yeah, exactly! And it's not like I begrudge LGB people their representation. I'm happy for it, I enjoy seeing it, and I would really love to seem more main characters being LGB in the future. But, as you say, a little bit of inclusion in the pop-cultural narrative should not be too much for ace/aro people to ask for. Yet it's often treated as though it is.

Yeah, me neither. Gay characters are great, I would love for there to be more gay main characters, and more gay characters where it's not a big deal and their entire storyline doesn't revolve around their sexuality. And like you said above, there are way more gay people than ace people so it would make sense that there aren't AS MANY ace characters, but ANY at all would be nice.