[ SECRET POST #3567 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3567 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 72 secrets from Secret Submission Post #510.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. https://66.media.tumblr.com/05aaab306c81b1f0e9fb77ea539c15ba/tumblr_oej0vcdSn41sivacmo1_r1_540.png

[(Anonymous)]

Because now everything is problematic and offensive.

There is no way something like Watchmen or The Killing Joke or even The Dark Knight Returns could be made today without triggering someone.

[(Anonymous)]

People would make that critique, yes. That doesn't mean that they would necessarily be right or wrong, and it doesn't mean that those things couldn't get made.

I mean, Alan Moore is actually a pretty good example of how you can take those critiques extremely seriously while still maintaining your creative freedom.

[herpymcderp]

I'm assuming what you're talking about here is throwing in a rape/sexual threat scene to make your story "gritty"?

I don't think that's problematic and offensive so much as it is extremely lazy writing.

[(Anonymous)]

ow the edge

[dethtoll]

Unlike the latter two, Watchmen has redeeming value. I never liked TKJ for what it did to Barbara.

[(Anonymous)]

There is no way they could be written now because they were written in protest and rebellion against a very specific set of tropes and style that were prevalent at the time. They were written to subvert the ideas of the Silver and Bronze Ages of comics, and without that background they are less relevant. If they were written now, they'd be protest and rebellion against the grimdark they heralded.

[(Anonymous)]

As someone old enough to have been "triggered"--or at least freaked out--by Watchmen when it came out, I can tell you being triggered isn't new. I think the difference now is that fans are willing to admit that the book are creepy and offensive, and not the best advertisement for the medium or the genre.

[thelesbianfuturist]

It was always offensive, only now people other than white men get to talk, so people are able to see it.

[(Anonymous)]

We swooped to the far left for a while there. It seems like we are moving back the other way now. Boy, I can't wait to see what will come out of the push back from the ultra Puritanical view fandom (and media) have taken right now.

I expect some crazy fanfiction porn. Like, some new kinks are going to be created.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god, so much this. The backlash against the puritans is going to be one big 24/7 kink party. I CAN'T WAIT.

[feotakahari]

There've been people calling The Killing Joke sexist since it came out, but what really galvanized fandom against it was the much-maligned animated movie. That was so widely hated it made people look back on whether the original comic was really all that good.

[(Anonymous)]

The Killing Joke movie was hated for the additional content not present in the original story. The graphic novel will always be a classic.

[otakugal15]

Because SJW trends. The comic good (not the recent movie). I mean, I get the criticisms. Barbra was basically a prop for the whole thing, yes. But the comic is still good, if a bit...sexist.

BUT, if it WEREN'T for that comic, we never would have had Oracle. Which most people like more than Batgirl.

[dethtoll]

Oracle was the only good thing to come out of TKJ, and it only happened because a couple of writers were shocked at how callously DC threw Barbara away and sought to rescue the character.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sick of the Joker. Let him die DC.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't go that far, it is unfair to future fans to off such a character that has been such a huge part of the mythos. I wouldn't mind if he were quietly shelved for a few years though. They don't even have to ship him off to prison/arkham, just let him fade into the background. Let other characters wonder where he's gone, maybe have a few jump scare sort of thing where they expect the Joker and get someone else, then they sorta forget or assume he died or went sane, then they can bring him back when nobody expects him any more.

[greenvelvetcake]

Right. They wouldn't have to keep him dead forever - it is DC - but keep him dead and out of the limelight for like 10 years, then have a glorious comeback after we finally detox.

[(Anonymous)]

The social landscape changed and the tropes TKJ were acting against no longer became the dominant tropes themselves so it had less relevance.

[(Anonymous)]

This. Seriously darker and edgier batman stories are so mainstream that there are movies about them now. So it's not that revolutionary anymore. Still kinda sexist which got worse with time.

[(Anonymous)]

TKJ was a mainstay for a few reasons:

1) unintentional origin of Oracle - whatever you make of this is positive or negative or w/e it did bring Babs out of comic book limbo
2) Joker-Batman relationship for casuals and entry level readers
3) The point of it all was about how Jim Gordon is still an upstanding moral citizen despite Joker's claims
4) Joker's "origin story" for lack of a better term.
5) Bolland's awesome art

The reason there's backlash against it is because, well, the shitty movie came out. Also, the whole damn story was never meant to be canon and Alan Moore was pissed about that (much like how he's pissed about Blackest Night).

Now, Babs is no longer Oracle, Joker-Batman relationship dynamic is now basically summed up in The Dark Knight, no1curr about Jim Gordon, and Joker is now known for having a no origin/multiple choice past, thus rendering he whole comic obsolete at this point.

Political correctness most definitely plays *A* role in the backlash given the incorrect information that is constantly spread about Babs being raped when it was Jim who was violated, but it's not the sole reason it's being bashed. It's mostly just a result of the comic becoming a corner stone but now has no relevance in today's continuity. Much like it was supposed to be from the start.

You wouldn't tell someone trying to get into mainline Superman to read Red Son, much like now the Killing Joke has no impact on anything outside of MAYBE Babs and they don't really talk about it anymore ever since she became the One True Batgirl.

[tcex28]

I finally read The Killing Joke after reading various other stuff by Alan Moore (e.g. Watchmen, From Hell, Whatever Happened To..., Providence), and I found TKJ kind of sloppy in comparison. It's lacking in the ingenious structure and poignantly nuanced observation of human life that you expect from his better works. It's got great ideas of course, but they're sitting in a somewhat undercooked pie. And obviously the dismissive use of Barbara doesn't help.

[philippos42]

Huh. That's odd.

I'm winning!

Or Kim Yale is, maybe. I think Ostrander & Yale did such a good job of building up Oracle as a major character that the Killing Joke went from "look at this badass Brian Bolland Batman comic" to "the worst thing that ever happened to Barbara Gordon."

Also, I think Marvel/DC fandom is different now. Different demographically, different in its biases, less determined to be edgy.

[(Anonymous)]

For me I was kind of underwhelmed by it. I mean, I was so worried about being triggered that I had my brother read it first.

When I did get around to reading it, before I saw the movie. I liked some of the dialogue, but overall the story was pretty bland. I guess back in the day, what the Joker did was considered shocking/mind breaking but, I kind expected something more elaborate?

Moore said that Barbara wasn't raped (who knows because of backlash) so I'm sticking with that interpretation. I also see the Joker as asexual, so it fits in with how I see his character.

(Still, I'm often left wondering: Why does anyone have to be naked?
It's humiliating and meant to degrade, sure. But it seems a bit low brow for the Joker. Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit?)

I was a bit bothered by Batman's reaction or lack there off. Like the last bit where the Joker makes Batman laugh was cool but at the same time it's like; ' You just stripped and degraded Jim, showed him naked pictures of his daughter, who you also stripped and possibly raped. Because of you she'll never walk again...But that's FUNNY.'

The art is absolutely gorgeous.

Like others, I'd say it was the movie who highlighted its problematic issues (and made them 10x worse). I do like that these issues are being talked about and recognized though.

[(Anonymous)]

My understanding is that people have added context around various comic tropes that makes them problematic not individually but as a pattern. For example, Gail Simone has raised a lot of awareness about the "disposable superheroine" trope in comics where prominent female characters will get depowered or killed for the Epic Drama. The Killing Joke is part of this problematic pattern, but it also has the distinction of being Actually Good. (In fact, this seems to be a pattern with Alan Moore. A lot of the tropes featured in his graphic novels annoy me and I always think I'll be bugged when I read a work of his but then I'm just left at the end being like, "... Darn it, it's... actually good." To the extent it still features tropes I like, I am annoyed, but my overall impression is just impressed.)

With the Killing Joke especially, the elements featured in the story, the contrast/mirroring of Batman and Joker's backstories/psyche, the ambiguous ending, etc. all were pretty novel at the time (or so I hear?). But when you have people remaking the Killing Joke, you don't get any of that novelty and instead you just get a replay of a fairly traumatic story for women where women somehow manage to be fairly incidental to the story overall. Remaking the Killing Joke takes it out of the context it was made in (where it shined) and puts it in a different context where it has no novelty (like, even someone who is familiar with modern incarnations of Batman like the Nolan movies but HAVEN'T read The Killing Joke will still find something familiar in this portrayal of Batman and the Joker) but still has the problematic aspects. The story is still great, but replaying it seems gratuitous.