[ SECRET POST #477 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 35

[pikabot]

You're forgetting that the one who was running the projector was Old Coco, who could very easily have the knowledge of how too go about doing that. And she stopped them smashing themselves because she was the only signal that could get through to them to tell them to stop and let Simon take care of bidness.

I don't see how it's sue-ish that people like her when she hasn't done anything to make them NOT like her. The Dai-Gurren Brigade seems like a pretty open group to me, and they were never given a reason to dislike her.

A flaw? How about her naivete? Her lack of understanding of the outside world? Her inability to cook? Just because it doesn't get people killed, doesn't mean it isn't a character flaw. Hell, her naivete very nearly did get her killed against Adiane.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

A different anon, but Nia was the daughter of the man who essentially caused all their problems. That alone is enough to warrent some dislike from the Dai-Gurren Brigade. Of course, when they realize that she's a good person they would probably accept her, but in the show their hesitation lasted for a grand total of five minutes before they all started to fawn over her and her cuteness.

Naivite and innocence are common sue traits. They are not real personality flaws per say, but aspects that even make her MORE liked by the cast. And the lack of cooking ability is just an anime running gag. It's not meant to be taken seriously at all.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

How is "idiotically brave", Kamina, a true flaw? How is "extremely honorable", Viral, a true flaw? Really, Nia's naiveté flaw is as valid as any flaw from "larger-than-life" fiction in the line of the already stated Gurren-Lagann, One Piece or similar shows. They're likable flaws, that's the whole point.

And why would the Gurren-Dan hold a grunge against Nia when she earned their respect standing unarmed against Adiane for their sake? Not to mention they all heard Genome abandoned her.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Just out of idle curiosity, what's your definition of a Sue? Because if we both have different definitions this whole debate is going to be pointless.

I'm not saying that the Gurren-Dan should have held a grudge, but they at least should have been a bit hesitant before fawning over her like she's the greatest/most adorable thing on the whole planet.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Why would they be hesitant when they all heard Genome heartlessly abandoned her and Adiane, the enemy, almost killed her? The Gurren-Dan are not the kind of people to hold a grunge, this would go against their entire philosophy.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

They are open, friendly people, that much is true. But for EVERYONE to suddenly love Nia within the span of a few minutes so soon after Kamina's death did nothing to weaken the whole "Nia is a Sue" argument. Like one anon said above, it was the combination of her many qualities that made her a Sue, not simply one or two.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: Why would they hate Nia due to Kamina's death? They didn't show any "love" for Nia until episode 12, which happened weeks after episode, in which she earned their respect.

Second: Which qualities? Which quality actually stands-out among the Gurren-Lagann larger-than-life cast?

Third: She is not a Sue. You think she is a Sue. Different things.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: I never said they should hate Nia, just that they should have shown more uncertainty before fawning after her like in the beach episode.

Second: The typical sueish qualities of : 1. Being a princess. 2. Tragic backstory. 3. Her physical appearance. 4. Having the magnetic ability to make almost everyone she comes in contact with love her. 5. Heroic sacrifice at the end. It's the combination of them that makes her one, IMO.

Third: She is a Sue. You think she is not one. That is why I asked you before what your definition of a Sue is, because the criteria for what makes one has become so skewed over the years and we clearly have different ideas of what makes one.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: The same group of people that foolishly walked into an obvious trap by Guame and later the Anti-Spiral show uncertainty? Really? They just follow their heart.

Second: Those are not "Sue" traits, those are shoujo heroine traits. Besides... since when is a "tragic backstory" a Mary Sue trait? Not to mention every single main character that died in Gurren-Lagann did so in a sacrificial, heroic fashion. You're grasping at straws in here.

Third: What is a Mary Sue for you? A larger-than-life female character?

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: Like I said before, it was their immediate adoration of her combined with her other traits that made her a Sue.

Second: Are you serious? Tragic backstory is one of the prominent sue factors in fanfics. And as I said MULTIPLE times before, it was the COMBINATION of her traits (heroic sacrifice included) that made her a Sue. But this all ties into my next point...

Third: Accroding to wikipedia, a Sue "a term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified." Gee, this sure sounds a lot like Nia. And, before you jump on the defensive, it sounds like Kamina too. And I also believe he is a Stu, but for different reasons than Nia.

And why are you so quick to assume I'm automatically against female characters with special abilities? I dislike male characters similar to her for the same reason. Don't bring gender into this, especially if I never alluded to anything otherwise.

And you STILL never answered the question I first asked: What's YOUR definition of a Sue?

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

A Sue is a character that kills suspension of disbelief, plain and simple. Nia never broke suspension of disbelief, hence she is not a Mary Sue. I don't think what you quoted for Nia from Wikipedia helps your point either, since Nia's traits were justified and she never went against what was stated as "logic" in the Gurren-Lagann universe. Kamina is not a Stu for similar reasons. Try reading what you post, please.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Really? I find it incredibly hard to believe that breaking the suspension of disbelief alone is enough to warrent a Sue label. You're telling me that nothing else matters when deciding if a characeter is a Sue or not?

Regardless, I think this is one of those "agree to disagree" situations. The term "Mary Sue" is broad and varies with each person, and everyone has a different criteria. I believe she's a Sue, you don't, and I don't think we're going to change each other's mind anytime soon. For what it's worth, I found this debate entertaining and wouldn't mind continuing, but I have a feeling we'll just be going around in circles. Bye <3

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Breaking suspension of disbelief is not enough to warrant a Sue label but if you never broke suspension of disbelief you can safely state that your character is not a Sue.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

I find that incredibly hard to believe, but to each her own <3

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

But the definition of a Sue is linked to breaking suspension of disbelief. You ¿re free to not like a character, but calling him or her "Mary Sue" when they never broke suspension of disbelief is unfair.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

>You're

Fixed my typo.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

I do agree with you that Nia has never broken any rules within the logic of the show, but I find that her other traits that I mentioned before are enough to compensate for this.

Once again, the term "Mary Sue" has become so skewed that everyone has a different version. Just because my defnition doesn't match with yours doesn't mean it won't match with someone else's.

Re: 35

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

I'm just an idle passer-by that haven't even seen the anime, but I simply must comment; her inability to cook? It's classic! It's the one "flaw" that always, always is tacked on to characters that are a bit too perfect. Usually it doesn't work as a flaw, since it tends to be presented as cute (also, it's a skill, not a trait).

But really, I haven't seen the series. She might be a lovely character for all I know. It's just... that particular "flaw" is almost- no, not almost. It is one of the more famous clichés out there.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

It's really not inability to cook but entire lack of any practical skills. But like you said, it's a skill.

And really, character flaws are something pretty overrated. Their only intention is to drive the plot and make you sympathetic to a character, which would make them Mary Sue by definition. Characters are created for people to like them, their "flaws" are intended to make them likable. Honestly, people...

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

So essentially you're saying you want perfect characters? Flaws are what give characters depth and development. They are pretty much necessary for conflict and a good story. If there were no character flaws, then how interesting would the story actually be?

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

No, read my post again. She's saying "flaws" that make a character likable are not "flaws" and I disagreed since "flaws" are in the first place only intended to make character likable, the only real purpose of "depth and development" is to generate empathy with the spectator, and to drive the plot/action.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Not all flaws are intended to make a character likable. For example, Shinji from Evangelion is extremely insecure, timid, and doesn't do well under pressure. His flaws are a major hinderance to the people around him, and they make most members of the audience more irritated at him than sympathetic. I can see how some characters have flaws to make them likable (ex. Nia and Kamina) but that certainly does not apply to everyone.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Seeing Shinji being an extremely popular character at Japanese magazines' polls I would say his flaws indeed made him likable.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

It shouldn't be a surprise that the Western and Eastern fanbases are different. How many people here do you actually think like him? Another character with flaws is Chibiusa from Sailor Moon, who is bratty and immature but eventually grows up. I can't speak for the Eastern fanbase, but she's pretty hated in the West. Don't make generalizations such as "every character has flaws to make them likable". There are almost always exceptions to every rule.

Re: 35

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Actually, Shinji is pretty popular here in Sweden as well.

I don't think character flaws are there to make characters popular, but to male them more human and easier to relate to. When an author loves a character too much to give them a "real" flaw, i.e. something that might actually be detrimental to them in some way, I'd say the border of Sueland is being breached.

Otherwise, the only clear examples of Sues tend to be when the character bends reality. That is, when a character can somehow work outside the laws of the canon they're in, and/or causes extremely uncharacteristic behaviour in other characters.

The only examples I've run into in published fiction are Anita Blake in Laurell Hamilton's series (though she didn't start out as a Sue), and the female lead in Elizabeth Hayden's "Rhapsody" series. People really are overly prone to call characters Sues when they simply don't like them.