[ SECRET POST #4066 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4066 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 26 secrets from Secret Submission Post #582.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

It always strikes me as the same sort of weird that makes people decide they're transgender or non-binary because they don't have Traditionally [Gender] Hobbies. Y'know what I mean.

"I don't like wearing skirts, or pink, and I like videogames, but that's fine, because hobbies and clothing don't need to be gendered anyway!" has become "I don't like wearing skirts, or pink, and I like videogames, that means I must not be a girl, so obviously I'm non-binary, or bi-gender, because I like boy things too!"

It's contradictory, and really sets back what people have been trying achieve for literally years. You're basing your identity on outdated sexism people have been trying to get past. You're taking a step backwards, here.

This sort of stuff is literally no different. Transgender people have been saying for ages that you don't need a penis to be a man, or a vagina to be a woman, to the point where relatively mainstream media are now saying 'people who have periods' instead of 'women'.

And yet... here's this person (and others like them), saying they're non-binary AND a woman, presumably ... because they have a vagina.

It's frustrating. People wanting to tick too many identity boxes make it very hard for others to be taken seriously.

[(Anonymous)]

This argument again!

People being non-binary is not entrenching sexist stereotypes, any more than the existence of trans people is entrenching sexist stereotypes. It's the same argument and it's not any more valid.

[(Anonymous)]

How so?

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt but how? LGBT discourse has recently taken three steps backwards in utilizing arguments like "gender is a social construct" (which implies that it really is in society's authority to define masculine/feminine) and terminology like "presenting feminine/masculine" (which implies there is a correct way to do it). If I were thirteen and heard this stuff, I'd think I was genderqueer or something because I had male hobbies, shopped for clothes in the boys' section, and don't actively think about how much I identify as female every day.

Trans issues are different because they are defined by dysphoria and the desire to transition to both the societal role opposite their birth sex inclusive and their physical sex (whether or not this surgical transition is feasible for them in their situation).

If you can't define what it means to "feel like a guy" or "feel like a girl", then what even is the point? Before this discourse, we were fighting to downplay the importance of gender at all - no thoughts, no presentation, no behaviors, no hobbies define femininity nor masculinity. Now it seems to me young activists are trying to categorize gender with no intent but to have other people validate and acknowledge them for doing it.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

If I were thirteen and heard this stuff, I'd think I was genderqueer or something because I had male hobbies, shopped for clothes in the boys' section, and don't actively think about how much I identify as female every day.

Well, there's no accounting for teen stupidity, but that's one heck of of a straw man.

No, you're not genderqueer because you dress butch, or because you have the wrong hobby. You might be genderqueer if you come to the conclusion that the work of shutting that off on a regular basis because of safety or to pay the rent (a necessity for most trans people in the closet) is slowly killing you.

[(Anonymous)]

No, you're not genderqueer because you dress butch, or because you have the wrong hobby. You might be genderqueer if you come to the conclusion that the work of shutting that off on a regular basis because of safety or to pay the rent (a necessity for most trans people in the closet) is slowly killing you.

what. substantiate that. You described being trans and having serious gender dysphoria, not "genderqueer".

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt, but your straw man was my actual reality when I was a teen. I didn't fit into the box assigned by my particular culture to women at all, and for years I believed and felt like it meant that I wasn't "really" a girl (especially with being secretly attracted to women). I had never heard of trans as a concept or any of this gender stuff, but I'm pretty sure I would have labeled myself trans or the like if I had. When I learned what gender essentialism was and that it was possible to be female without being "feminine," I stopped feeling like that and accepted myself as a woman. Gender essentialism is bullshit and I hate how the queer community now likes to force it on others under the guise of being open about gender. We are supposed to be better than that. It's the same b.s. that was foisted on so many of us against out will, we shouldn't be perpetuating it.

[(Anonymous)]

How is it the same argument

[(Anonymous)]

It can be, you can't deny that.

If somebody decides they're only nb purely because they're resisting gender stereotypes, it is absolutely entrenching them in the process.

It's the same as saying 'girls can't like sport because it's a boy thing'. If you have to be at least somewhat 'boy' to like sport, it's 100% entrenching the problematic stereotype.

To decide you're nonbinary purely because you're into stuff not traditionally associated with your gender, you're probably very immature and it's a reflection on this immaturity. If your hobbies and interests define your gender in your eyes, it's a problem.

If somebody decides they're non-binary not based on hobbies, or preferences, in stuff traditionally designed by social acceptance, that's not the same thing.

[(Anonymous)]

If, if, if, if. Mostly none of your ifs apply in RL.

[(Anonymous)]

I've never gotten the don't have to have vagina to be a woman. If it's not defined by the biological role than what is it?

The societal role? Then isn't that just upholding it?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not trans, but the way I look at it is, it's defined by what your brain says you are.

If I woke up tomorrow with no breasts, a penis, and balls, I would still be a woman in my own consciousness. Was/am I a "tomboy"? Yup. Do I like things that are both stereotypically male and stereotypically female? Yup. But I, myself, if you ask me, am female.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt - but I don't find I have any particular "attachment" to my gender. I acknowledge I have been influenced by it, absolutely, whether through external forces or slight variation in brain chemistry. It is what it is. But I don't think I'd lose any "me" if I woke up tomorrow as a guy. I think I'd have a brief adjustment period where I had to get used to looking at myself in the mirror and recognize my own body as mine, and sure, verbally normalize that I'm now a guy, not a woman in a guy's body. But I really don't think I'd have much trouble adjusting. The me in my head isn't a gender.

Maybe that's an extreme example, but I can't imagine most people spend a lot of time thinking about their gender internally unless it constantly comes up (such as in a sexist society) or is a source of trouble for them (i.e. trans people).

[(Anonymous)]

I'm so glad I'm not the only person to think this way!

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT, but I would flip out and go get gender reassignment surgery to get my female body back, and I don’t even like my body most of the time because I don’t think it’s feminine enough, and I’m a cis woman. Realizing that I would absolutely have the mother of all panic attacks if I woke up with a dick actually helped me understand where trans people were coming from.

[(Anonymous)]

ia with you. everyone is so focused on gender now, it's making people even more divisive and stupidly self-conscious.

[(Anonymous)]

Same here. I'm comfortable being female but I don't think I would be bothered if I were suddenly male instead because gender isn't something that ever even really crosses my mind at all.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

What's really weird about this is that we also get the argument that trans women are not really women because they're disproportionately represented in IT, computer science, and game design! Some trans men wear skirts and pink. Others don't. Often when trans people conform to gender stereotypes, it's because of tradition of cis doctors gatekeeping medical care around demands that trans women be exceptionally feminine and trans men exceptionally masculine. (Which is one of those things that trans people talk about when not answerable to cis people trying to play "gotcha.")

[(Anonymous)]

What's a woman?

[cbrachyrhynchos]

A complex biological, social, political, and economic class reality.

[(Anonymous)]

Then how can you define real?

[(Anonymous)]

This though. According to the Tumblr masses I'd be FtM just because I don't do typical 'girly' things. It's so fucking annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, not really, because that's not really what people think and also more fundamentally because your identity isn't anyone else's to define

[(Anonymous)]

It is what some people think.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Tumblr like Twitter is a search engine for stupidity. Why are you taking your cues from Tumblr?