fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4459 ]

[ SECRET POST #4459 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4459 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dan Bern, WTNV, I Only Listen To the Mountain Goats, the Mountain Goats]

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[The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel]

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[Director James Gunn, Guardians of the Galaxy franchise]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 08 secrets from Secret Submission Post #638.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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The comment above me was the one that said Tony's reaction to his parents' murder was enough of a reason for Steve not to tell him. If that's the case, then it is pure cowardice. If you're going to back down from telling the truth about an innocent woman's murder because you don't want to face the reaction to it, when you have willfully torn down entire government agencies for treason yourself and damn the consequences, then you are a coward. What the hell was it about Tony's potential reaction that he couldn't have just faced, instead of lying and keeping silent and letting the murders go without justice or even acknowledgement?

He TRIED to tell them Bucky was innocent. He was laughed at when asked about getting Bucky a lawyer. A huge chunk of the plot of Civil War is nobody listening to Steve about Bucky's innocence, including Tony.

Also, god, you're acting like he was quizzed on the murder and he said "no officer I've never seen that man in my life." He chose not to bring up an implied thread from Zola. He didn't know 100% what the facts were, so coming to Tony with a half-understood mention would have been cruel too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were two years between Winter Soldier and Civil War. That's a lot of time not to tell someone. More than I can forgive.

I haven't seen Infinity War. What have Peter Quill's actions got to do with anything?

In between Winter Soldier and Civil War was Age of Ultron, in which the two of them were ANYTHING but friendly with each other (and in which Tony pulled some awful shit of his own, more than /I/ can forgive. He was my fave before that movie.)

Ah, okay. I asked because in Infinity War, Peter reacts violently to finding out a loved one was recently killed by someone who was right in front of him, and he's been getting a lot of shit from fans for that reaction (because it did fuck up a plan, but the murder had happened mere /hours/ before) while Tony usually gets a pass.

He didn't tell anyone they were murdered. Because doing so might lead to the revelation that it was Bucky who was forced to murder them. For two years. Nobody asked him about it because he didn't allow that to be an option. And I do fully understand why, but it's still not something I can forgive him for. His reasons aren't enough to justify that in my eyes. You can't lecture other people about telling the truth and then just hide a murder. Even the implication of a murder.

After spending an entire movie lecturing everyone about due process and accountability, Tony reacted with intent to MURDER, not just punch Bucky in the face and be done with it. He even KNEW Bucky was controlled and had no choice or will in the matter, and said straight up "I don't care."

And there was a year between WS and AoU. A year for him to sit on the knowledge that two people had been murdered and tell no one. I'm sorry. By my lights, you just don't get to hide that and still have my respect. There are some things where, if you have any courage and decency at all, you stand up and say it. There is no excuse for a lie or omission of that magnitude. Someone was murdered.

Because he had literally just watched his mother be murdered. And turned around to find the face that killed her standing right there. You do not watch someone you love die in front of you and react rationally.

If I remember right, the film makers even said they did that on purpose, they set it up exactly like that to produce that reaction. As did Zola. The entire situation was set up do he'd have no option except to react emotionally. And yes, he walked right into it and gave them exactly what they wanted, but if someone murders my mother and I turn around and they're standing right beside me, I am 100% smashing their face in myself.

But, true. You don't have to forgive him for it. Neither does Steve, neither does Bucky. But by exactly the same token, he doesn't have to forgive them for what they've done. (Mostly Steve, Bucky's actions were against his will - though even still, even if someone did not willingly murder your family, that doesn't mean you should have to look at them ever again when they still have). Which is what I mean. That entire relationship is past salvaging. The things they have done to each other in these movies are beyond the pale. This is not ... Cut them out. Have them be done with each other. This is not a relationship that has ever helped anybody, least of all either of the people in it. What is there to salvage in a relationship that started out with interpersonal strife and graduated to lies and secrets and violence? Where people hide murders and respond to each other's actions with violence? Where there is no trust and never has been?

This thread is fascinating to me because usually this com comes down entirely on the side of Steve and says Tony was completely unreasonable. I actually think both acted in ways that made sense. I get why Steve wouldn't tell Tony because loyalty is Steve's highest value, and Bucky comes first always. And I get why Tony would be pissed because it was his parents, and he was watching the murder.

I don't agree that they can't make up, though. I think that fighting side by side again could allow them the opportunity to make up. Even at the end of Civil War, we see that they both have a level of understanding of each other. They aren't complete enemies, and they know it. So I think they could be friends again.

The comic books had time, though. In the movies only Steve and Bucky and then Tony and Rhodey had that time. Friendships take time. Steve and Natasha had some side missions together and the time to get closer as friends. They couldn't really give Steve and Tony that time because Downey is a major actor and if he'd been in Cap 2, the movie would have become more about him. And Cap 2 needed to be about the Steve and Bucky friendship.

That sounds cool! Which elements did you pick? Comfy mismatching armchairs, persian rugs, painings with big frames, ...?

I'm never going to believe that, and I don't even like Stark. But he went up against Thor and space leviathans in a much older model suit, so if he really intended to kill, two super soldiers would hardly be a match for him.

Not starting by having the two of them butting heads would have helped imo, because that didn't do anything to endear me to their MCU relationship much and I'm not saying that they should have instantly adored one another but something better than that. And not just for those two but the whole core Avengers, I buy genuine friendships for a few pairs of them, but the rest just feel like co-workers at best no matter how much the films try to convince me otherwise.

It's just a hang-up I have with the MCU is all and I can still enjoy the movies despite that but... just wish they'd done that aspect better.

I guess I was so sold on the Steve and Bucky friendship in the first Cap movie that it didn't bother me. I wasn't really into the comics, so I didn't have all this history. I just saw a friendship that drew me in, and I didn't really have to have another that was the same. It worked for me that they were two very different people who worked together and became work friends, but they both had these other close friendships that were more important.

So every time I see this haircut on other people, I fucking hate it.

...I find it hot on Hawkeye.

FML lol.

The Steve and Bucky friendship is fine, actually tbh I prefer the MCU version over the comics because I think the foundation is more solid(ymmv on that though, this is just me), and Steve's relationships with Sam and Natasha also work partly because his movies give those friendships more time and because the base-line interactions are overall friendlier(at least to me).

Steve+Clint, Tony and Thor are just... a lot emptier to me, and yeah part of it is definitely because I read the comics first and thus had relationships to compare them to, but even then to me it just doesn't feel as though the movies try as hard with those?

Unlike with Clint+Nat where the Avengers movies are always very good at showing how close they are and how much they mean to one another and despite my disinterest in Clint overall I really like that relationship because it's clear they've been friends for a long while.

Idk, it obviously works for enough people and that's fine, but for me the core-Avengers team friendships are lacking but I can ignore it to enjoy the rest of the movies. And tbh there are really solid friendships in the MCU so it's not like those not working for me is insurmountable. I just ignore the movies trying to tell me that Steve+Tony were 'super-close!!' when nothing ever really suggested that.

That makes sense. And I agree that they weren't super close. I guess I just don't need to me. The Avengers, for the most part, to me are "work friends." Acquaintances who work together and therefore know each other pretty well, but their friendship is based on work and they aren't so likely to meet up outside of work things (apart from the occasional shawarma meal). Their is still a relationship there that gets torn in Civil War and needs repairing so they can work together again. But I don't think they are best friends in the movies, and I'm not sure the creators intended them to be.

Hey no it's cool to disagree, it works for you so that's fine. :)

I guess part of me just wanted something a little closer to the more 'found family' vibe that the comics get but they never went there, which alas I suppose but oh well, I can live with the good friendships they do have in the MCU because those are great.

Tbh narritively I do get the impression that the movies think we should consider Steve+Tony closer than they are and I kind of squint at it but otherwise ignore it, it doesn't really bother me.

And someone was a POW who was tortured and brainwashed for 70 years.

(Jumping back in here....I’m not the OP of the last few comments but I did comment a few posts back.)

I guess...I’m not trying to change your mind here. Obviously to you it is a very black and white situation. It just isn’t to me. They both made mistakes. Steve didn’t tell Tony what Zola said/implied. Tony tried to murder Bucky.

I mean, fair disclosure of bias - I’m more on Steve’s side than Tony’s in this. I like Tony, but I’ve found it impossible to side with him since Ultron, and I felt like he did the same thing all over again with the Accords. On the other hand, I wasn’t entirely happy with Steve in CW either. The whole Lagos debacle was entirely on him, and other than that one short scene with Wanda when they’re watching the news, the movie makes no acknowledgement of that, preferring to entirely put it onto Wanda and her scary powers. I would have been much happier if Steve had stepped up and taken more responsibility for what happened, and taken a more forceful stance in arguing against Ross’s bullshit.

So yeah, they both screwed up. But then Thanos came. And wiped out half the population of the universe. I guess under those circumstances I feel like there’s room for them to view things in a different perspective and to find some forgiveness and move forward.

But as always, mileage will vary.

After the events in WS, Steve was trying to find Bucky, to bring him in, to help him. That was his priority. Zola had merely hinted that HYDRA had something to do with Howard's death. So the first time we, the audience, sees that Bucky verifies that he did all those things that HYDRA brainwashed him innto doing is on the quinjet to Siberia.

Please tell me, given that timeline, when Steve had a chance to tell Tony what he knew?

No, I get it. You're not going to forgive Steve. Got it. But understand that some of us have thought about this and know that Marvel made this an immovable object/unstoppable force paradox. They both lose. No one wins.

I love undercuts but on a pug-faced wrinkled leathery man with a face like a california raisin, it's not a good look

Mismatching cosy armchairs and a sofa, Persian rug and lots of warm colours and cosy/robust textures. :)

Sweet. Good luck on your hunt for the right funiture!

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[ SECRET POST #4459 ]

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Re: What decorating styles and colors do you like right now?

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Re: What decorating styles and colors do you like right now?