[ SECRET POST #673 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #673 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/

Secrets Left to Post: 14 pages, 348 secrets from Secret Submission Post #096.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 123.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

This is something that has troubled me for a long time. I'm going to ask this question as politely as I can, with no intention of instigating any strife.

How could someone who is presumably not only tolerant of but even a fan of homosexual relationships in fandom be against samesex marriage - equal rights for actual, living, breathing human beings?

[(Anonymous)]

what of the right to religion?

[pikabot]

What about it? You don't need to be married in a church to be married by law.

[kristenell.livejournal.com]

This has nothing to do with religion. Churches already have the right to refuse to marry anyone they don't see fit. (See the Catholic Church not performing remarriages after divorce.) Having the government recognize marriage does not force the churches to do anything.

Also you don't get to have right to withhold rights from other people. And not to mention not all churches are against gay marriage, and would happily marry them in places of the churches that won't. (Granted gay people would not want to be married by churches that hate them)

[frostious.livejournal.com]

You have the right to believe whatever the hell you want, but what makes you think it's okay to push your belief on other people, especially when said belief takes away their rights and makes them second-class citizens?

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

But the people fighting Prop 8 are fighting for same-sex marriage to be accepted by the government, so that same-sex couples can have the same legal benefits enjoyed by opposite-sex couples. They are not fighting for gay marriage to be accepted in the eye of the church, and I'd like to think this is where the line could be drawn for now.

In any case, if the right to religion can be used as an excuse to oppose same-sex marriage, I'm curious as to how a person who believes this can still reconcile their beliefs with, say, being a fan of slash. Doesn't that mean that on some intellectual level, you can accept it as right and natural - and yet still oppose it?

[(Anonymous)]

Excuse me, but I'm just going to copy-paste some bits of what other people said and put it as my own, because I lack eloquence on such an issue.

IFILL: The next round of -- pardon me, the next round of questions starts with you, Sen. Biden. Do you support, as they do in Alaska, granting same-sex benefits to couples?

BIDEN: Absolutely. Do I support granting same-sex benefits? Absolutely positively. Look, in an Obama-Biden administration, there will be absolutely no distinction from a constitutional standpoint or a legal standpoint between a same-sex and a heterosexual couple.

The fact of the matter is that under the Constitution we should be granted -- same-sex couples should be able to have visitation rights in the hospitals, joint ownership of property, life insurance policies, et cetera. That's only fair.

It's what the Constitution calls for. And so we do support it. We do support making sure that committed couples in a same-sex marriage are guaranteed the same constitutional benefits as it relates to their property rights, their rights of visitation, their rights to insurance, their rights of ownership as heterosexual couples do.

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.



I agree with this view.
I do, however, realize that the supreme court has made this a legal issue, and that the argument to this point of view would be "well won't you prefer to have everyone equal as opposed to suppressed in the constitution?"

And you're right, as a fan of slash I disregard gender and focus on the characters. I write yaoi, yuri, het - pretty much anything that two characters can do with each other. So yes, I believe it is natural. I believe love between two people is natural. And yet I'm still yes on the principal of religion, because I do think marriage should be a religious issue, and that if forced into a legal issue I'd rather have marriage be defined between a man and woman and protect church definition of marriage than legalize gay marriage.

It's not a popular view, but it is mine.

Someone would then say "don't you care about your homosexual friends?"
And the only thing I could respond with is, I do. And I care about my religious friends, too. I'm tired. I'm tired of arguing to the point where I want to give up and just say "whatever you voted!" to whoever asks. But I realize that when deciding this issue, I cannot let friendship get in the way of my point of view because there IS no "acceptable" view. because I shouldn't be forced into an "acceptable" view.

[kristenell.livejournal.com]

My only problem with that, is that marriage is a civil institution and civil unions don't offer the same protections and legal status as marriage. SO they are unequal.

As it was said before, church's are not going to be forced to marry anybody, and it doesn't affect you. It does however affect us. And what of the churches that want to marry gay people? They can't do that? Why is the government even operating under a religious mantle. There is a separation between church and state in this country. That is a two way street the government doesn't tell the church what to do, and the church does not tell the government what to do.

Marriage started as and still is a civil institution.

Also Joe Biden's and Barack Obama's stances are there to save their political asses. Their positions are hypocritical and idiotic.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Well, let's make it clear that Biden, and whoever else in his position for that matter, probably felt he had to say that or risk losing his party the election. He may actually believe in what he said, for all we know, but this point stands regarding the state of politics in our country.

As for what we've been talking about, well, I'm starting to think that, for a lot of people, this entire debate comes down to, "I'm not against homosexuality. I believe people have the right to be whoever they were born to be. However, I do not support same-sex marriage, because in the eye of the church, marriage is defined as strictly between a man and a woman."

I can see how that could be. And I can see how someone who is in this position would have a lot to lose on both sides. However, I also believe in the separation of church and state, and for me, this means that government-sanctioned and church-sanctioned marriage should not receive the same treatment. The church already has the right to turn away any form of marriages believed not to be acceptable in the eye of God, but the government should grant equal rights to all because that is the law.

Those of us fighting Proposition 8 understand that we cannot win the approval of the church for same-sex marriage, at least not in this fight. But we recognize that legal benefits enjoyed by same-sex couples have been been taken away with the passing of Prop 8, and that, to me, is unconstitutional. Since I believe that allowing government-sanctioned marriage for same-sex couples in no way forces the church to change its view on the institution of marriage, I cannot support the decision of those who use religious grounds as reasons to deny others their government-granted civil rights.

But in the end, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I hope that you will find some way to reconcile your beliefs with your friends on both sides of the battle, though I'm really afraid that's not possible unless you do make some effort to change your point of view.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

No one has the right to legislate their religion.

Check the establishment clause: It includes a rather important bit about The government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, which is exactly what Prop 8 does.

[kristenell.livejournal.com]

It is times like these that I less than 3 you like crazy.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

♥

For the sake of preemptive argument - the other part of the establishment clause, the part that goes, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY to legislate religion.

In fact, by legislating gay marriage OUT, the government is prohibiting the free exercise of the Unitarian Universalist Church, which supports gay marriage, among other religions which allow and support it as well.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Think of it like this. I have the right to listen to my Ben Folds CD. I can turn it up pretty loud. If, however, I turn it up loud enough to bother my neighbors, they'll call the cops on me and I'll have to turn it down.

Your religious views are like my music. Practice them how you like, but the second it infringes on someone else's rights, you are SOL.

And before you try and flip this to say homosexuality infringes on your rights- no, it doesn't. Don't pretend that it does. No one is going to make you marry one of us and our getting hitched doesn't affect you. It's a private matter.

[velvet-mace.livejournal.com]

Other people marrying in no way interferes with your religion. Your church does not have to marry anyone it doesn't want to, it can still exclude married gays.

However, what about my religion? My religion says it's fine for two consenting adults to get married regardless of their genders. Are you saying you have the right to impose your religion on people who don't share it? Would you be okay if other people imposed their religion on you?

No one is forcing you to get gay married.

However you are preventing my cousin who along with his life mate of 30 years from entering into a civil contract. They have three children -- yes together, a mortgage, and yet because of people like you everything from insurance to inheritance benefits is either fucked up or denied to them.

[hilohello.livejournal.com]

What about religion? My meeting once married two guys. To each other.

If we say "yes" who's the government to say "no"?

Re: 123.

[(Anonymous)]

IDK fantasy =/= reality?

Re: 123.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Isn't that rather exploitative? And in any case, I'll just copy+paste what I typed above: if the right to religion can be used as an excuse to oppose same-sex marriage, I'm curious as to how a person who believes this can still reconcile their beliefs with, say, being a fan of slash. Doesn't that mean that on some intellectual, you can accept it as right and natural - and yet still oppose it?

Re: 123.

[(Anonymous)]

So people who attack those for being against stuff like violent rape fics on the basis that "fantasy =/= reality" are given the green light despite this theory of intellectual level? What, does is that the exception or something?

Re: 123.

[kristenell.livejournal.com]

Rape is harmful in real life, people are hurt by it, those are not even in the same league as gay relationships. As a lesbian that is offensive to me that you would make that comparison. Also being against rape is a whole heck of a lot different then being against equal rights.

It hurts people. Gay people. Don't hurt anyone by being gay and it is exploitative and hypocritical to read and focus on stories about gay relationships while being homophobic about it in real life

Re: 123.

[(Anonymous)]

I think they're both extremely serious. Rape is violating someone in the most twisted and intimate way possible, and denying someone's basic rights because of sexual orientation is, well, to me equally twisted. I guess I'm not giving a justification for those raised in an anti-gay environment, I sort of went off on a tangent how the same people can be hypocritical in one way (being all for gay marriage in fandom and RL, but protest fantasy =/= reality in fics of rape) and not see they might unknowingly be supporting something wrong themselves.

Re: 123.

[miss_prince.livejournal.com]

Equating a rape fantasy with slash implies that homosexuality is a fetish.

Re: 123.

[boosette.livejournal.com]

ILU.

Re: 123.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

This is a disgusting argument. You are assuming that everyone in fandom is okay with the idea of rape in fantasy, which is already a misconception. Even the greenlighters acknowledge that rape is anything but "right and natural" - the depiction of rape and violence in fiction, when used for personal fantasy, is deliberately presented to be as divorced from reality as possible. Interpersonal relationships, homosexual inclusive, are on the other hand an integral part of human nature. The specific relationship being depicted maybe fictional and fantastic, but the core essence of it remains.

Re: 123.

[jaclynhyde.livejournal.com]

No, people don't have to support what they like to read about. But when it's something as basic as "seeing gay people as human beings who love and want to get married just the way you do," it's jarring to see that person go and not support gay marriage. It's not like enjoying fics about rape, and pedophilia, and teacher/student relationships, where these obviously hurting someone in real life.

In short, loving slash does not mean you should support gay rights. Basic human decency means you should support gay rights.

Re: 123.

[shadsie.livejournal.com]

I haven't replied on anything on FS in a long time... I haven't been into visiting here in a long time, but this whole mess prompted me to reply.

(Any lingering "enemies" of mine who may be lying in wait to bring up crap I said in other places three years ago on this and similar issues can shut up now, because I am a different person now than I was back then).

Now that matter's out of thew way...

I find it supremely ironic that I really, actively dislike slash and yaoi in general fandom... I mean, I'm even a member of the antiyaoi LJ com (because of the behavior of its obnoxious fans, not its sane ones), - I mean, I really dislike it for various reasons I won't go into here -- and have had people call me a "homophobe" for it. I shouldn't have to give excuses - it just doesn't float my boat. At least one person even went so far as to call cry "homophobe" on me for not thinking their personal OTPs of choice where teh canon...

I would have voted down on Prop. 8 so hard had I lived in California. Same deal with 102 (?) if I were living where I used to live (Arizona).

I am a semi-religious person that's apparently obnoxious to many people just for existing. I'm honestly not sure on what my views are regarding homosexuality and scripture. I've seen various interpretations and, in the end, each church and each individual is going to go what what they think is most accurate. All I know, for myself, is that I feel it's my supreme dutyto treat everyone with love, kindness and dignity. I also believe strongly in the seperation of church and state. Religious matters should stay personal, in the churches, in indivudual thought and deed. We live in a plural society and my beliefs may not match your beliefs, so I believe in civil rights for everyone.

I just think it's kind of weird... me, a person who dislikes slash - getting flack for it when I'd like to see people in real life have rights under the law, when there's yaoi fangirls who'll vote down the same.