fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5029 ]

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After yesterdays discussions about beta readers, I find myself a bit stuck as to what to do.

The conclusion from yesterday's threads seems to be that good beta readers are usually also freelance editors who, quite rightly, charge for their services.

My problem is that I cannot afford to shell out for an editing job just for my hobby, but I still want to get better.

So how can I go about doing that without other people's input?? All suggestions gratefully received.

I am one of those betas who does freelance editing for published writers and I charge for my work. That said - I edit friends' work for free, and they do the same for mine. It's not easy finding a good (and free) beta, but it's not impossible. Unfortunately, it takes time and effort to cultivate relationships like that. I sort of stumbled across my betas - our friendships began in fandom (but we were all people who wrote original fiction) and even after we all drifted away from fandom, the friendships have lasted well over a decade.

I'd recommend reading a lot, not just for enjoyment but with a critical eye. What do you want to improve about your own writing? Look for that in the things you read, look for people whose writing skills are strong in areas that you're most interested in. Likewise, find people whose writing style, subject, etc. are a good match with your own. Put your own writing out there and let it be known that you're open to constructive criticism. If/when you receive it, be gracious about the concrit regardless of whether or not you agree. You don't have to take every beta's advice or agree with their feedback, but in those cases, a polite thank you for their time would be good. Then you move on and keep looking for feedback that clicks with you - you look for that person whose advice you read and think, "Oh, my god YES, that's it exactly!"

Good luck.

If/when you receive it, be gracious about the concrit regardless of whether or not you agree. You don't have to take every beta's advice or agree with their feedback, but in those cases, a polite thank you for their time would be good.

Wise words, OP. I relentlessly strike people off the list of those I'll beta for because an high proportion of them don't even bother to say thanks. Rude bastards. That's hours of my time and energy I can't spare, gone for good.

If you can't strike up a good relationship with a beta, by beta-reading for them, being polite and friendly, etc etc (and this is difficult, I know, I was damn lucky with mine) - write, write, write. That was Ursula LeGuin's advice and it's good, though a pain. She said the way to learn the tuba is to get a tuba and some tuba music and to practice, possibly a long way from anyone else; but practice is the way to do it.

Oh, and if you can join a writing group, either in person or online, that helps; you can get people picking up on different aspects of your work, though it takes time to build trust. Posting online if you'[re writing fanfic serves much the same function. Most of us are lucky if we get a smattering of comments but they all help.

That's the minimum baseline, IMO. Even if I don't agree with everything my betas say, I always thank them profusely for their time and work because I know for a fact they've got plenty of other things to do. They're doing me a favor by agreeing to look at my writing and analyze it - which isn't a quick, easy job if it's done right.

Also agree that practice is key.

I forgot to add... if you cannot find a good beta or are still in the process of looking, then IMO the best thing you can do for yourself is to read quality writing. We all read stuff for pleasure - that's not what I'm talking about. Look for the kind of writing you want to emulate in terms of quality. Then read it with your own editor's hat on to figure out WHY that writing works for you, and HOW it accomplishes what it does.

Read in the genre you want to write in, but read a wide variety as well. That includes non-fiction. All of that stuff goes into your writing, it's like being on a highly nutritious diet to maximize your physical performance.

(Cozy werewolf anon) I am a writer who is also a dev editor and mentioned we charge.

If you want to get better at writing, first, you have to write. Writing takes practice. Secondly, you need to read and analyze what you read. I'm not entirely talking on a technical level, but at least on a substance level. What do you enjoy about the books you read? What are techniques such as tense, POV, structure, character types, these authors employ?

Reading is part of a writer's job. Especially to keep your 'voice' modern if you want to traditionally publish. (No. You can't write like Tolkien anymore. Sigh.)

Thirdly, you can read writing advice books and try to apply what you learn. Or watch master writing classes. Margaret Atwood has a class. Sanderson has a class. Stephen King has written a writing book. Tumblr is full of writing advice, follow HeyWriters and from that one, you'll find a bunch of writing blogs they reblog.(Hey, I post writing advice to tumblr, ginnyzero, tagged under writing advice and writing tumblr.) Follow professional writers/editors on twitter. Not the self-published ones, but the trad published writers and editors. They'll slip good advice from time to time. Writingcommunity on twitter is a cranky mess. Facebook is worse.

My favorite writing advice book that kept me from doing so many bad things is called "Writer's Little Book of Wisdom" by John Long. I'm 99% sure it is out of print. It's small and the advice is in bullet point digestible bits. You might find it on thriftstore.com or other used book sites.

I've also read William Zinsser's "On Writing Well." A classic.
My Narrative Storytelling textbook at Academy of Art was "What if? Writing exercises for Fiction Writers" by Anne Bernays and Pamela Painter. My teacher's advice was "No Vampires!" (So I wrote a story about a werewolf, b/c I am petty.)
For LONG series work, I recommend "Writing the Fiction Series" by Karen S. Weisner
"No Plot? No Problem!" By Chris Baty is a book to help writing NaNo.

As a writer, I took one thing and I worked on it until I was happy with it. Small bites. Dialogue. Description. Conflict. Character building. World building. Break it down into easy pieces and focus on it until you're happy with it and then take on the next bit. But you write, write and write more, until you develop a gut instinct and eye for what's going on.

Then, you edit! Because a first draft is cake ingredients and is supposed to be bad. It's just getting the story out in word vomit. Editing is what makes the story tasty. It makes sure everything is mixed and baked right and decorated!

You can also find a writer group or "make friends" with another writer you admire in fandom and hope it can turn into a mutually beneficial writing relationship. (It can happen!)

If you aren't going to uni for writing (I didn't) it takes longer and a lot of pro-activity on your part to improve. It took me over 10 years to write an original novel I was proud of. For a very long time I was all "I will only write fanfic FOREVER!" Then I worked hard on some internal mental/emotional issues and here I am, writing both and self-publishing.

Ok, lots of advice there. Hope it helps.

I very much feel that simply writing a lot, and giving it your all when you do write, is the #1 way to get better.

That's not to say an excellent beta reader can't do a lot for someone who is receptive to their help/advice. But if you just keep writing, and always challenge yourself to write your story to the best of your abilities, I think you're already doing the one major thing you need to be doing in order to improve.

Great suggestions in the above comments.

Three things I'll add:
1. Subscribe to the

betaplease comm here on Dreamwidth.
2. If you do Discord, join the Yuletide server.
3. Nancy Kress' Beginnings, Middles, Ends is an excellent little book.

Imma have 'ta go back 'n check wut y'all people been talkin' 'bout, 'parrently.

No. Beta's do not have to be paid. Fanfiction is not a legit business, nor should it be. It's a hobby and an interest/obsession between a sometimes not so common community who all benefit off of the communities interaction, conversations, and contributions, said community could not live without. This goes double with fanfic. The prospect that personal and self interacting interests have been commercialized is the ultimate form of pathetic to me. The ultimate for of wrong, tbh.
Betas mean basically nothing to most people depending on the fandom, no reader really cares if you have one, and the interpretation that they should be some sort of mandatory device is the most pretentious thing I've ever heard.

To some they're just friendly spell/grammar checkers. Others, they're so self-important they decide that they have right to use the author as their own writing device.

Like fuck you guys, writers who don't get paid don't need to pay some entitled asshole to check over and point out some flaws (that the writer could even do themselves most of the time) for some disgustingly delusional fans who don't actually deserve the content they demand.

Yes, you should go back and actually read the discussion before responding to it, because you've made some incorrect assumptions about what people were saying and you're insulting people based on those incorrect assumptions.

What is a good amount of venting?

Hey there folks, how's it going? I've run into a problem where I don't know what is a good amount to talk about my own problems with my friends? I have a couple of friends who talk about their problems/life often. However I'm reluctant to do the same due to negative and silent responses I've received recently with separate online folks.

I'm wondering if I'm doing myself harm by being closed off with my feelings, or missing out on the chance to connect with people? I'm trying to be cool and chill about things, but I'm also worried about if I'm being a bad friend by being silent.

A good amount is it's not over taking your life and dominating all your conversations. If it's interfering with the quality of your life and you aren't talking about anything else, there is a problem.

It could be context when speaking with your friends? If you bring up your problems when they bring up theirs and they need you to listen, they might feel talked over and invalidated. Or you are trying to "one up" them.

If you're bringing up your problems at a completely different time and they aren't responding. Then, your friendship might be one way.

You don't have to be silent. You can try to give validation and hope. "This is hard, you've done hard things before. I believe in you." "Your feelings are valid. There's no wrong way to feel about things." "Do you need someone to listen? Or do you need help?" "That sounds tough, what do you want to do about it from here?" "What is your ideal outcome? Giving up is an option. Let's talk through them." "It's not fun to feel this way. Is there something we can do together you enjoy?" "You're important. You're valid. I care about you."

None of these responses require sharing your experiences or feelings and still let you connect to your friend and give them support in their time of need. And if they're good friends, they'll give you support in yours. There are times where you need to sit on your anxiety and fear for the sake of your friends who are also going through difficult times. No one should be each other's emotional support guru 100% of the time.

Also, therapy. Therapy is designed for airing out of your emotions, coming to terms and creating coping mechanisms. You can't let go of the problem without knowing what it is.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, this does help me a lot. :D I appreciate the example phrases too, because god knows sometimes I'm at a loss of what to say but without trying to dig into my own personal experiences, which are kinda like a lot and very little at the same time.

I think I'll be fine if I don't share my own experiences. It used to bother me at first, but I think some thoughts are better kept to myself as I try to process things first.

100% agree with anon up.

Also if you feel it's too much, you might want to write them down first as a way of venting. Then you can talk about it to your friends but also asking them advice on how to solve them, to maybe make them feel included in the conversation.

Thank you, I think this is great advice! I thankfully like to journal so I'll try to process my own thoughts first to sort out what might be good to mention, and what is simply too sharp and too much/needs more personal work first.

Every relationship has a ebb and flow to it, everyone is unique and follows its own rhythm.

Assuming I read this correctly, you're talking about a hesitation you feel sharing your experiences with real life friends if only due to the lack of response you get online. Or am I wrong?
I ask because words are contextless when typed. There can only be so much inflection and emphasis through text. There's a chance that your online friends are misinterpreting the context or misunderstood the importance of what you said to them. Anon online interaction is significantly different from physical/knowledgeable online conversations if only because the RL have a physical representative of what they mean.

My advice it to start slow. They want to vent, so they may just want sympathy on their hardships, given you haven't discussed your own problems (or any others) they may see you as a safe and trustworthy confidant to talk to. I would allow them their sanctuary through me, offering what advice I could, but to stay aware of the way they present it to you. The more casual approach (or the relationship that you find most trustworthy) the more likely they hear you out similarly to the way you've done for them and everyone else.

Best way to start is to ask if you can tell them something, and depending on their response and how well you know them, you can gauge who your confidant should be. (though a non significant admission should be on hand for each individual, given to all who failed and decided to trust, just ask your significant questions to those who you believe will give you an honest answer)

Yeah, lack of response has made me feel like maybe people are just going silently "what the fuck" at what I have to say. I live a harder life than what most people experience or are comfortable interacting with, so I'm thinking that maybe the issues are just too much to share. I think I'll be okay if my problems are just too intense to talk about. I was just concerned about if my decision to be closed off about my own self may come off even worse.

Thank you for hearing me out and offering your words of advice. I probably won't discuss my issues with folks, but I am considering what level of a relationship I want with folks. I do want to be close of course, but maybe I can just be supportive without having to give much info about my own bad, hard-to-talk-about situation as well.

I am angry. It's not an explosion, no volcano awaiting it's erupt, it's slow and simmering. Burning and bubbling in my chest, hot and coiling up my arteries with sparks of fire. It hurts, breathing hurts. I have no instinct to hurt anyone, no want, and no need, but there's a fury in me that doesn't quite go away. It burns at the back of my throat to spit venomous remarks at whoever pokes me the wrong way, but while a few grumpy comments get through, the anger only simmers, then boils, and stays somewhere in between.

I'm not going to blow up, but the ache is heavy and sick in my chest.

I avoid all interaction when I get like this. Living with my family, I close myself off in my room, but I'll still willing to respond and aid them with a smile and a laugh.

Idk, I literally wrote five different versions of this over a dozen times, just to try to explain myself. I truely hope this is good enough.

I am on medication, I talk to a very uncaring phycologist. I just need to know some tips on how to deal with that all consuming just under overwhelming boil of rage that burns itself about my chest. I need to know tips that work because I want to make what time we have left count.

I write. I pour all of my negative emotions into writing. It's not a full solution but it acts as a safety valve for me. Sorry I can't suggest anything else. I'm still working on managing mine too.

Change your psychologist if you can though. It's not you, it's them - they're bad at their job.

Thank you, I think that will help. I wrote and re-wrote this about a dozen times late last night and as stressful as it was venting did help a bit. Thank you again! <3

I recommend seeing other spaces, and how things are over there. Are people nicer over there? Do they not make you angry, nor are mean to you? Perspective about how things could be can help you understand what exactly the things that are currently angering, and how to solve a couple of them.

I do think the occasional isolation can help cool your head, and prevent you from getting into more bad situations.

I'm seconding the anon above who said to write. I currently have a story tossing around in my head about my own frustrations with society and poverty, and I think I managed to create something nice from it. I also recommend finding a different psychologist if they're utterly uncaring for your well being, provided that you can find another source of medicine. Additionally, give yourself treats and sources of happiness such as funny youtube videos, a new story to dig into, or video games that are distracting. Any sort of distraction is good now days.

[ SECRET POST #5029 ]

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Anger Management

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