fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5646 ]

As an actual queer person, I'm so tired of people in my fandom trying to gatekeep the "right" way to be queer, especially when the ones doing it are older straight women. I can't even remember the last time I was this into a fandom, and I had forgotten how *exhausting* all the drama could be.

WTF. Why are straight people like this? I'm sorry you had to experience this!

They aren't. Queer people gatekeep other queer people and then get accused of being straight by the people who are gatekept because even the gatekept don't want to believe other queer people can be bigots too. Moreover, it's largely young queer people, so they're neither straight nor older.

DA - This entire exchange made me so confused. What IS the "right" way to be queer anyway? I suppose I never had the misfortune of being confronted by one such young misguided queer person.

Here are just a few of the most common ones:

-If you're bi or pan and your partner is the opposite gender, you're not queer enough.
-If you're anything except 100% gay, you're not queer enough. If you're aro or ace, sometimes you're not queer at all.
-Transmedicalism (if you don't medically transition, you're not trans)
-If you're flamboyant, you're an offensive stereotype.
-If you're not flamboyant, you're a bootlicker.
-If you like "problematic" BL or het, you're a straight girl no matter what you say your gender or sexuality is.

+1000 to all of these

also
-If you're trans and you pass, we'll call you cishet
-If you're trans and you don't pass, we'll misgender you
-If your queer Leather identity is important to you, we'll try to kick you out of Pride because the sight of chaps make children cry, supposedly
-If you're nonbinary or genderqueer or agender, we'll judge you based on what we think you "really" are based on your selfies/pfp and you don't get to fight back against it
-If you're a bi woman, we think you're straight and lying about it. If you're a bi man, we think you're gay and lying about it

Person who asked: oh, thanks to both of you. But isn't that... a human thing, not fandom-specific? For instance, the different stances on being "flamboyant" - I assume it's not the same people complaining. In short, I don't think it's part of the fandom experience, and I agree that both straight and non-straight people can be "gatekeep-y" in that way. Maybe it's just me (and my fandoms) but in my experience, fandom people tend to be more accepting (ie. less bigoted) in general than non-fandom people.

Re: AYRT

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-22 17:19 (UTC) - Expand

Re: AYRT

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-22 18:22 (UTC) - Expand

+1

I mean, yes, some queer people do gatekeep to the rest of us, and it's a mix of older terf lesbian separatists, 'gold star' gays, and young kids who have no real world experience with the community but get harmful messaging from the former, but straight people ABSOLUTELY do it as well?? Outside of fandom it's usually the 'be less gay in public' crowd or the straight men who are gross to queer women, but historically, I (nayrt but a queer man in fandom) have struggled with older women who self-ID as straight long before dealing with gatekeepy queer teenagers, and they haven't disappeared just because they're not the only game in town.

Like, when I was a teen, much of fandom was DOMINATED by straight adult women and while het ships were king back in the day and many fandoms had aggressive pushback against any queer shipping whatsoever, the 'slash fandoms' still had straight fans who had Opinions. Thankfully, they also had a lot of fellow queer fans who were starting to assert their voices and be out and proud online (or at least semi-anonymously so) and who were building communities that were more queer friendly. But for a good stretch of time, we mostly weren't gatekeeping each other!

DA

Queer people have been gatekeeping each other forEVER. When I was in college in the early 90s there were huge shouting matches about whether bi people should be allowed in the (as it was then called) Lesbian/Gay Alliance. It wasn't coming from straights because they weren't involved at all. Second-wave lesbian feminism was unbelievably hostile to trans and bi women. (See Michigan Womyn's Music Festival). Gay male culture has been historically often extremely brutal to trans men and bi men. That's not even getting into the huge fights between more mainstream-friendly, assimilationist factions vs the more radical ones + the drag, camp, leather contingents. Let's not have too rosy a view of "the queer community" because like they say, those who don't know history, etc.

I see a lot of these same arguments that I hoped were settled 30 years ago coming up again and again and again because younger queers keep reinventing the shitty gatekeeping wheel.

OP of thread

Thank you! I don't know why some people in this thread are assuming that I'm No True Scotsmaning the situation or something. The people I'm talking about have said *themselves* that they are straight women, so that's what I'm going by. Queer people can be judgmental and gatekeep, too, and I'm never going to claim otherwise. And while I find it annoying, I realize that we all have different life experiences and our opinions on things can be vastly different based on the culture where we grew up/what our families were like/a million other variables, and that's fine. What I have an issue with is self-described straight women complaining about someone being not flamboyant enough/too flamboyant/bi and in an opposite sex relationship/not comfortable with PDAs/whatever.

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen some anti deliberately erasing people's identities because they want to believe the only people who disagree with them are white straight women.

There's that shit going on with the Boyfriends comic right now, people are screaming about how it's "fetishization by white straight fujoshis" on and on and on. The creator is an Asian trans man. He's getting misgendered left and right for weeks because gatekeepers don't like the way he draws his queer male characters.

So if you see someone being accused of being straight, you can't necessarily assume that it's true. Bring your critical thinking to call-outs and don't take it at face value just because it's coming from other queer people.

Anon who asked: Oh. Had no idea about this. I saw people complaining about, what was it? Fetishizing Orientalism or something? And I saw the pictures and they were just horny fanart to me. Like, the same kind that people draw of characters in dresses, jeans or whatever but they happened to be wearing "traditional" clothing. And the kids called this person a "she" so I assumed that was their gender. The fact that it's an Asian trans man makes me see things in a very different light...

OP of thread

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen some anti deliberately erasing people's identities because they want to believe the only people who disagree with them are white straight women.

I'm not "anti" anything (other than people who are judgy and narrow-minded), and I'm not erasing anyone's identity. Maybe that's something that people do, but I'm personally only talking about people who have specifically said themselves that they are straight women (and I have no idea if they're white, that's never come up because there's never been a reason for it to).

OP of thread

I'm specifically talking about people who have said themselves that they are straight women (and one in particular who constantly describes herself as "old"). There are other queer people who gatekeep, and it annoys me, but it's just a whole different level of infuriating when self-described straight people do it.

OP of the thread

I doubt anyone will see this this late, but I just wanted to be clear.

To all the people commenting that it's not actually straight people, but other queer people being called straight because some people don't like what they're saying: I'm talking specifically about people who have described THEMSELVES as straight women.

There are plenty of other queer people in the fandom that say things I disagree with and that's fine. We're all different, with different experiences in our own lives and with the community at large, and while I might think some of them are sometimes gatekeep-y and it annoys me, it's a whole different thing than when *self-identified straight people* do it.

This exchange made me think of an episode that happened to me, don't mind me just venting. It involved me (a panro ace woman), an "ex-friend" (a bi woman - technically a friend, but I had picked a fight with her friends before that and we had stopped talking by then) and a girl I didn't even know (she called herself a lesbian then but now I see she has "ace lesbian" on her profile which is another can of worms). Ex-friend is a BNF in BL fandom, girl I didn't know is a BNF in GL fandom I think?, I am a nobody who happens to be vocal about enjoying BL/GL (Apparently some people know me for that by now, and it makes me slightly disconcerted for reasons. See below)

One day silly me decided to thank this girl I didn't know for an informative thread on GL (the Japanese language barrier is always a challenge, so I was very thankful) and ask a few questions. I used the word "fetishize" because I use it regularly as someone who studied the concept at college-level and being the kind of ace who forgets that some words may have sexual meanings/implications. But this word angered her A LOT, and she snapped at me because "people [implied: sexually] fetishize lesbians" . So I said sorry, which was all I could do? (As someone who enjoyed GL before getting into BL precisely because BL felt too sex-focused to me, SIGH.) I had another point about BL (which is more my "area of expertise", thus this one wasn't a question) which she couldn't be bothered to read, so ex-friend comes in to "correct" my "lesbian-fetishizing cishet" ass on this point I wasn't even wrong about to begin with while the girl's followers harassed me for fetishizing lesbians (DUDE??? It wasn't even the wrong word! We just interpreted it WAY too differently!).

The thing is, I am not particularly OUT, if an aphobe/homophobe asks if I am straight I may go "uhh? I guess? *shrug*" . It's part of my personality and life circumstances, to each their own, only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches. Because of that I do my best to be humble and not gatekeep in a "I KNOW LGBTQ+ PEOPLE'S SUFFERING!" way - as I really don't for the most part, but in SOME ways I do which is why I fight against it. But I AM vocal enough about my passion for BL(/some GL) for people to fill in the blanks with whatever they want to believe in. This is the funny thing: they may choose to believe in ANYTHING, and it matters SO MUCH to them. Maybe it's because it never mattered to me (why should I care about what others do in bed) but it's funny to me how people assume... crap. By now some people think I am a closeted lesbian, others think I am a cishet lesbian-fetishizing trash (apparently?) but people seldom get it right.

Of course, what annoyed me on a personal level was realizing that they got to gatekeep how other people felt about queer media (not even aimed at queer people, mind you) and everyone who disagrees (or just "words things badly") MUST be a "fetishizing cishet". As I said, I often let others have it their way, particularly because I am not the kind of person who shares that kind of info on their profile description thus I tend to assume that others should have more of a say than me, I just don't feel like I have a lot to add. The irony in that (other than the fact that I was objectively correct as I ended up proving but was still raided by BNFs and their followers) is the fact that both are queer women just as much as I am - one an ace lesbian gatekeeping GL manga, the other a bi woman gatekeeping BL manga and both just as "straight passing" as me IRL I assume (at least ex-friend is) but they act like authorities on BL/GL manga because they're vocal about being LGBTQ+ (online) thus it's supposedly closer to their reality. Not saying it isn't - I totally know that feeling! Because, uh, it's how I fucking feel too. I just try to not gatekeep or act like my opinion on media is better (than cishet fans' or whatever) because of it, even more so because I am NOT a lesbian/gay male. Funny thing: neither are them. (As a P.S. it's worth noting that I picked a fight with "ex-friend"'s friends precisely almost a decade ago because I went out with a guy they were mutual friends with, got TIRED and got shit for it. I was young, buying into the "aces don't exist" discourse and following my therapist's suggestion, what can I say?)

Anyway, this "lesbian fetishizing cishet trash" episode was maybe one or two years ago and my Twitter account is set to private since then. I just don't want to deal with that kind of bullshit anymore. My job is tiring enough. Thanks for letting me vent?

(SA) And just to make this clear, before anyone jumps to conclusions, my two points were:

1- "do you think the terminology 'yuri' is more fetishizing than GL?" or something like that, can't remember how I worded it (in the sense of, going back to its origins, the association with white lilies and purity etc; because for GL manga branded/published as yuri that I read, the cutesy style feels like a MUST nowadays - even for porn - but I don't read THAT many so I wanted to know if "yuri" still refers to cutesy tropes.)

2- she had stated that "there are GL manga published in non-GL specific magazines, unlike BL which must always be published in BL magazines" so I said there are BL published in non-BL magazines. Which is just a fact, but then I was automatically wrong because I am supposedly cishet trash.

It wasn't... meant to be offensive at all. But because I don't advertise that I am queer that makes me cishet trash or something and no amount of "sorry" can change that.

OP of thread

Personally, I take someone's word for however they say they identify. If they choose not to say, I'm not going to automatically assume they're straight, and I'm sorry people acted the way they did towards you. I'm just annoyed by people who say themselves that they are straight women, and then admonish other people for "not being queer enough".

(I'm "technically" bi but prefer queer, and have a lot going on in my life and am not interested in a relationship right now, so I've been accused of being "straight passing", or even just straight sometimes, because I'm into traditionally "girly" things and am not currently dating a woman.)

I am NOT a lesbian/gay male. Funny thing: neither are them.

I don't think lesbians/gay males are the only ones who are allowed to have an opinion (I mean, it's LGBTQ+ for a reason, lots of other identities are included!) and as for the girl you didn't know, I consider an ace lesbian to be a lesbian (a woman in a relationship with another woman is going to experience the same things non-ace lesbians are because it's not like the bigots are going to go around asking whether they're ace or not and then adjust their discrimination accordingly). Maybe an unpopular opinion, I don't know, but I sympathize with ace people because I feel like they're the other side of the same coin as bi people in that they get the same crap we do from the "lesbians/gay men are the only ones that *really* count" side of the community.

(AYRT) Maybe you aren't but some people, if not most, SURE are. Or at least they are going to assume SOMETHING.

I understand you as I am the same - I am "straight-passing" because I am not in a relationship with a woman but I do acknowledge there are advantages to that honestly.

Of course not, but I mean in the sense that BL/GL stories ARE (often) about gay men/women respectively. In that sense, I don't see why anyone should gatekeep to begin with (even because they were created by het women for het women lol) but if anyone were to gatekeep, I surely wouldn't expect that to be fellow queer/ace women (respectively, in this case) but here we are. And this is what annoyed me about it all.

As I said, can of worms and I am not going to go into that, but I can see why some allo lesbians don't like the usage of "lesbian" by ace (or even gray/demi) people who happen to be romantically more attracted to women and I try to respect that. Just like I try to not be pushy and respect people who think they "have it harder" because they are gay/lesbian which in some ways, for some people, in certain (cultural, social, and so forth) circumstances I think that may very well be true. We often don't know where a stranger on the internet comes from, so in short, I try to not assume and let people speak their minds if it's not deliberately hurtful. I even "understand" prejudice against people who aren't out like I "understand" prejudice against ace people and try to find a middle ground instead of being pushy. But from that to "fuck you cishet"? No fuck YOU.

OP/ayrt

Oh, yeah, I know there are people who do, I just felt like some other commenters in the thread were assuming I did that, and I definitely don't. I try to take what people online say at face value (at least when it comes to gender/orientation) because there's no way to know otherwise, and ultimately it doesn't really matter *that* much.

Yeah. Like I said in another comment, I'm lucky enough to have a very accepting group of family/friends and live in a liberal city, so right now I'm really only getting "why aren't you dating anyone/when are you going to find a relationship/etc." which is kind of annoying but obviously it's SIGNIFICANTLY PREFERABLE to being discriminated against/facing violence/any of the myriad awful things that queer people experience in more conservative/religious places.

Honestly, I personally feel like those people might fall into the gatekeeping category at least a little bit, because people who are publicly in same-sex relationships are generally going to face the same sorts of issues regardless of whether they identify as gay/bi/ace/whatever because it's not like the specifics are immediately obvious to the people who are going to discriminate.

I don't know, I just feel like if I were dating a woman as a bi/queer woman and were facing discrimination because of it, having a lesbian tell me that she "had it worse" would honestly piss me off. The fact that I could be "straight passing" in other circumstances wouldn't change the fact that I was still facing discrimination at that time. I don't know, I just feel like people who are any variety of queer are going to have certain challenges based on various factors, and some might "have it worse" in some circumstances while others do in other circumstances and trying to make it a competition just doesn't seem constructive to me. But that's just my opinion, and honestly I don't even know if I'm making sense so if not sorry about that lol.

But yeah, "fuck you cishet" is not useful in any situation as far as I'm concerned. (The fandom I'm talking about has discussion mainly on a forum, and my only real interaction with the straight ladies was responding to them being like "bi isn't good enough, the character must be GAY" was just being like "hey, I'm bi, and this is why I think bi representation is as important as gay representation" in what I thought was a polite way and got blocked lol.)

(AYRT) No, I totally get you. I mean some people do and... worse, they assume whatever and just roll with it, and that can be very problematic for everyone involved so that was my point, essentially. I read the comment in which you said you live in a blue state with liberal friends, so it's a non-issue to you and I get where you come from. For me, unfortunately, straight-passing is a privilege in the sense of "housing and employment come first because I am poor therefore if I am 'straight' that's a win". And this is why I get... people who believe I have it easier, etc. I do, in a sense.

Oh, sure not. In my case I have never been publicly in a relationship with a woman (...and 2 men at most, stretching it) which is why I acknowledge my privilege in that sense. I have never been discriminated against for PDA with a woman which is why I don't feel entitled to "advertise" being queer as if I knew every struggle so I would rather be honest about being straight-passing - even though I have been prejudiced against merely for being an "unconvincing straight" where I live so I can't even imagine how bad that would be. The episode in question angered me precisely because AFAIK "ex-friend" had never been publicly in a relationship with a woman either, and I just... was only trying to discuss a piece of media, not personal issues. But if we had to discuss personal issues, we don't even come from such different places identity-wise. We just see it in different ways. Sorry, maybe I am not making a lot of sense.

Oww that sucks, really. Sorry about that. Just the other day someone was complaining about possible ace rep in Good Omens being "shot down" by people who assume that character is gay, right? So I guess it's a thing in many fandoms. Luckily not in mine so it's not something I think about, sorry if I sounded insensitive about it.

Re: Fandom thoughts/rants

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-22 22:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fandom thoughts/rants

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-22 22:36 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fandom thoughts/rants

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-22 23:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fandom thoughts/rants

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-23 00:21 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fandom thoughts/rants

(Anonymous) - 2022-06-23 00:45 (UTC) - Expand

You don't need to respect lesbians who don't like homoromantic asexual women calling themselves lesbians.

That's kind of how I feel, honestly, and I think someone who does that falls into the category of gatekeeper that's discussed elsewhere in the thread. Not exactly the same thing, but I know a woman who's married to another woman who's been told she's less of a lesbian because she and her wife are both more traditionally "feminine" so they don't have things as hard as more "butch" lesbians, who are somehow more "real" lesbians apparently? I swear, all the infighting is fucking exhausting.

(AYRT) To be fair, I don't need to respect anyone. I just personally choose to try to understand and respect everyone who has a point, selfish as it may sound.