[ SECRET POST #6006 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6006 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[From]



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[Youtube channel "Hello Future Me"]



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[Monark]



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09. [SPOILERS for Across the Spiderverse]




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10. [WARNING for transphobia/standard JKR stuff]






















































Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #858.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is a complicated issue in a lot of ways. I certainly don't support her views that trans women aren't women and that trans men aren't men. They are women and men.

I do think there's a good bit of conversation to be had around the fact that trans women and trans men don't have the same experiences growing up that cis women and cis men do. Men and women are socialized incredibly differently in many parts of the world and, so, when someone crosses the socialization border, it can bring up a lot of complicated situations. For a lot of women, a woman's only space is where they can, sometimes literally, let their hair down. A trans woman entering that space, when they were raised as a man, changes things. Coming out as trans doesn't erase years of socialization as the opposite gender.

I also think it's disingenuous to say there's no difference between a trans woman and a cis woman or a trans man and a cis man. It comes up in sports a lot. A trans woman has the advantage of a biologically male body. They are a woman, but biologically speaking their body is not. This matters when it comes to sports. When it comes to change rooms. (Honestly, I wouldn't be comfortable in a change room with someone whose body was the opposite sex of mine, even if they are the same gender as me. If there's separate stalls, sure, those give privacy, but when I was in school there was one room for girls, one for the guys, and the only 'stalls' were showers.) When it comes to medical treatment.

There's also a lot of really good questions to be asking about hormone therapy for children. Let's be real, pumping anyone up full of hormones is full of a lot of risks. And there's a lot of ethical conversations that should be had around hormones therapy for kids who haven't even begun puberty. We have no long term studies on this and, frankly, kids change their minds sometimes. (Obviously not all kids will--but some will.) And, hormones, especially when started that young, can't easily be reversed.

I don't support her flat out stated views but I do think, in a lot of her posts, there are badly worded but valid questions and points being raised.

[(Anonymous)]

Hormone therapy has been used to treat cis people for a long time, so there actually is a lot of research available. Including hormone therapy for children--puberty blockers have historically been used to treat precocious puberty, and that's pretty much the extent of hormone treatment given to children, despite what the nonstop rumor mills say.

[(Anonymous)]

> A trans woman has the advantage of a biologically male body

Women's sports exists because men were whiny babies about being beat by cis women, so kindly shut the absolute fuck up especially when sports are largely judged by frail white women standards.

TERFS need to just shove a sock in it, literally, and choke on their words a bit.

[(Anonymous)]

and eat shit?
gods, you need a doctor. You really do.

[(Anonymous)]

Shut up, TERF, you're the one who wants us all to conform to your gender essentialist bull shit in order to feel better about your miserable self.

[(Anonymous)]

You're a minority and so are your views and you need to recognize it and accept it.

[(Anonymous)]

By this logic, blacks should deal with being slaves. They were a minority, after all! Them uppity blacks just didn't know how to recognize their views of freedom were a minority and accept it.

[(Anonymous)]

They’re really not a minority. But bigots like you always have an inflated sense of numbers when it comes to who’s with them. Bigots are the actual minorities.

[(Anonymous)]

You sound like a well-meaning person who's fallen for a lot of TERF talking points. I am not calling you a TERF, but you're close to becoming one. You say that trans women are women and trans men are men, but then basically start to question whether they should be treated like women and men, or like their birth assigned genders. A lot of the things you're saying are also completely wrong (nobody is "pumping kids full of hormones" or denying that the trans experience is different from the cis experience of growing up) and very often the most basic information you'll see debunked if you listen to any trans advocate. I would really suggest doing that if you're genuine in your belief that trans people are valid.

[(Anonymous)]

We're all learning so, yes, I will look into things more. Thank you for being kind. I wasn't trying to say they shouldn't be treated as men and women, only that I think the issue is complex and that a lot of the conversation gets lost in anger.

[(Anonymous)]

trans women and trans men don't have the same experiences growing up that cis women and cis men do.

No two people have the same socialization.

It comes up in sports a lot. A trans woman has the advantage of a biologically male body. They are a woman, but biologically speaking their body is not. This matters when it comes to sports.

It's not fundamentally implausible that there could be cases where trans women have advantages over cis women in sports. However, there are 3 important criteria that have to be kept in mind when thinking about this issue. One, the idea that trans women have an advantage should be supported by actual statistics and evidence; it should be possible to statistically demonstrate that a consistent advantage exists, and the conversation can't take place on the level of people saying "well, it stands to reason". Two, responsibility for making rules to address any advantage that exists should rest with sports governing bodies as much as possible, not with political bodies. Three, the least restrictive and discriminatory means of addressing advantages should be preferred whenever possible; so for instance, things like weight classes should be used rather than blanket bans on trans athletes.

What we see in practice is the complete opposite of that. We see political bodies making blanket bans on trans athletes without even an iota of actual evidence to justify the suggestion that such bans are needed. So it's just empirically clear that the actual reason for these bans is bigotry and moral panic, not any actual facts at issue.

(Honestly, I wouldn't be comfortable in a change room with someone whose body was the opposite sex of mine, even if they are the same gender as me. If there's separate stalls, sure, those give privacy, but when I was in school there was one room for girls, one for the guys, and the only 'stalls' were showers.)

I'm not comfortable changing in the same room with anyone of any gender. But there's not necessarily any one-size-fits-all solution for everyone's preferences, and dividing it up on the basis of birth sex isn't a good solution, especially when - again - we know for a fact that there's a huge amount of bigotry and prejudice driving these conversations.

There's also a lot of really good questions to be asking about hormone therapy for children. Let's be real, pumping anyone up full of hormones is full of a lot of risks. And there's a lot of ethical conversations that should be had around hormones therapy for kids who haven't even begun puberty. We have no long term studies on this and, frankly, kids change their minds sometimes. (Obviously not all kids will--but some will.) And, hormones, especially when started that young, can't easily be reversed.

Fuck off.

[(Anonymous)]

Men and women are socialized incredibly differently in many parts of the world

I don't have any statistics to back it up, just what I've observed, but nongender-conforming people have very different experiences and socialization from cismen and ciswomen. And even if a transperson publicly conformed to their sex assigned at birth for most of their life, I would say they had a very different perspective, which does matter in socialization.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'll second most of this.

Your last paragraph makes certain valid points, but I do personally think that the harm of making trans-identifying kids go through puberty before allowing them to transition is probably going to result in more harm overall than making puberty blockers available to them if desired. I'm not talking about being able to get them OTC, but I don't think most people are talking about that level of 100% unchecked availability, though.

I generally am of a mind that minors should not be legally permitted to make permanent, elective changes to their persons that will have tangible effects on them for the foreseeable future. With that said, how does that bare out when you have a suicidal fifteen-year-old and based on lengthy conversations with psych professionals, the brunt of their distress seems to be coming from their experience as a trans person who is unable to transition? How not-okay does a minor have to be before the risk that they will later come to regret a permanent choice is outweighed by the certainty of the distress they are experiencing?

[(Anonymous)]

I generally am of a mind that minors should not be legally permitted to make permanent, elective changes to their persons that will have tangible effects on them for the foreseeable future.

You want to be a professional ballerina, you HAVE to start young. Once your bones harden you won't really be able to develop the flexibility needed, especially in the hip joints. Guess when your bones start to harden? Puberty.... No permanent elective changes to their persons means no more professional ballerinas.

[(Anonymous)]

No more gymnasts either.

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is. I just think that there's a lot of conversations to be had about any permanent change but especially to minors.

[(Anonymous)]

The answer is actually easy. If we affirm their experiences, and let them be who they are, suicides DROP. By a LOT. No one performs gender affirming surgeries or sex hormone therapy on people under 18. At MOST you get puberty blockers, easy to reverse, easy to stop. That's the answer. LET THEM BE THEMSELVES.

The other option is to stand by and mentally harm kids so much they decide to kill themselves. I know which side I'm on.

[(Anonymous)]

Yet y'all don't care when it's blocking precocious puberty in six-year-olds. You only have concerns once you see trans people.

[(Anonymous)]

The business with hormones gave me pause, too. I have doctors in my family, and a lot of the reassuring-sounding stuff that I saw being floated to the general public about how "harmless" and "reversible" it was to give testosterone to girls and estrogen to boys was flat out untrue. Now more is coming out: the damage to the skeletal system, the way it screws up growth, the involuntary sterilization, the increased risks for cancer, and the fact that someone who's been on hormones is a lifelong client of the medical system. And this is just skimming the surface of the problems.

I can empathize with trans activists being defensive - many of their assertions really brings out the conservative crazies. But medical interventions tend to be presented in an irresponsibly optimistic way, and it's not doing anyone any favors to pretend widespread unwanted effects are not worth mentioning. When the patients of course will find out, and so will their families, and by now people who have nothing to do with it are asking questions that indicate considerably more knowledge of what can go wrong than they would have had five years ago.

[(Anonymous)]

The thing with TRAs is, they basically live with a cult mentality where parroting each and every talking point is mandatory, facts or critical research be damned, and any criticism of the cause is heresy and gets you on the witch-hunt list. Everything they accuse others of -cherry picking studies, confirmation bias, undactual statements based on hearsay- they are guilty of ten times over.

[(Anonymous)]

Transitioning has a lower regret percentage rate than knee surgery

[(Anonymous)]

As someone being called TERF here (and uncaring about it), I think no one under 18 should be allowed to take hormone injections and puberty blockers without parental permission. If you need it that bad and your parents don't allow you, legally emancipate yourself. Move out if you really believe you are trans and get the care you think you need.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, that's a non-starter in the US. How on earth is an emancipated teen supposed to support themselves and pay for treatment? And how many municipalities do you think are willing to emancipate on this basis?

[(Anonymous)]

That's.... that's how it's always been. And most kids under 18 getting hormone therapy are gender affirming for their assigned sex anyway (15yr old boy and his balls haven't dropped? hormone therapy! 14 yr old girl and she hasn't had a period yet? hormone therapy!). No one has had any problem with that, but suddenly if someone wants to get gender affirming therapy for ANY OTHER REASON it's a federal case.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, Susie, I know you have precocious puberty at like six, but your parents think they can pray it away! No puberty blockers for you! Sorry!