fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6168 ]

I just finished playing TLOU part 1 for the first time last week, and I got to the hospital scene at the end and was like NO. JOEL. You ASSHOLE. What a horrible man! I know nothing about part 2, and won't play it until it gets a PC port, but I hope Ellie rips him a new one and makes that old man suffer.

He's an asshole for not telling Ellie the truth afterwards, but if you're talking about the hospital scene itself, I fail to see how not handing over an unconscious child to a sketchy group that claims to want to save humanity yet also admits killing the child to get a cure isn't guaranteed to even work makes you an asshole.

Ah... you're one of those people who completely missed the point of his character being terrible...

I don't think that's it at all.

Would you be able to hand over a child that you'd come to care for? I'm not sure I'd be able to hand over my son. Maybe that makes me terrible, I'm not sure. It's a kind of terrible I think I'm willing to be.

Yes.

I would hand over my child, my mom, my wife, myself. If the ONLY HOPE of ending a mass casualty event and possible the extinction of the species was the death of one person, absolutely. Not only does Joel prioritize his feelings over the lives of all of humanity, he also invalidates Ellie's choice. He lies to her that there are others, that the hope of humanity does not rest on her. He's a horrible person both in the course of events and inter-personally. How many other people's children are going to die because Joel never could be bothered to process Sarah's death?

It's very easy to say that if you're not in that situation. The fact is that none of us actually have any idea what we'd do. We like to imagine we'd do the noble thing, but if everyone who imagined they'd always do the noble thing was truly capable of it, we'd live in a very different world.

Many people who think they'd be strong and do the "right" thing find that they can't, when the time comes for it. Or, they find that what counts as the "right" thing has changed for them.

Pray you aren't judged as harshly as you judge others when your moment of weakness arrives.

Dude, I'm already tired of life and I haven't been in a 20 year martial-law disease ridden hell. Being able to go out possibly saving the entirety of mankind? It would be a blessing.

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

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Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

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(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 06:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 16:24 (UTC) - Expand

DA sure you would.

I don't tend to think of characters who make the selfish human choice as terrible people, though. It makes them not perfect, but it doesn't make them evil, even if all of humanity rests on them. Hell, personally I'd rather humanity live and die based on humane options and we don't choose to make an Omelas based solely on a numbers game.

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 04:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 06:56 (UTC) - Expand

I am sorry, I do not go there but are you saying that person not sacrificing a child he is responsible for for a small chance of saving the whole world is a bad thing? Caring about everyone over individual doesn't make you a good person because individuals and their relationship also matter. It's impossible choice

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Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 16:10 (UTC) - Expand

I don't believe you would. But if you really would, and if people like that make up the majority of humanity, then humanity would deserve to die out. Love them or not, sacrificing someone else who has no say is never the ethical choice (no matter what the leader woman said Ellie would want, the girl was asleep; she could not speak for herself on whether giving her life is really what she would have wanted), and if we believe it is, then we've failed as a species.

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 13:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 19:00 (UTC) - Expand

Oh man there sure are a lot of people even here who missed that Joel didn't save Ellie for the profound individual-vs-civilizational moral reasons they've invented, he did it because of his own purely self-interested emotional investment in her as a proxy for his dead daughter. That's why he doesn't tell her what he did afterwards. If he thought it was morally defensible, that it was based on his true right-vs-wrong/Omelas convictions or his well-founded misgivings about the Fireflies, he would have told her the truth even if it ended up costing him his relationship with her, because her life and those beliefs are more important than that.

He doesn't tell her because he didn't do it because of that. He did it because of his self-interested emotional investment in his relationship. If she breaks off their relationship because she disagrees with his choice, it completely nullifies the purpose of what he did. This was the whole point of the story, this is what everything the character has said and done was leading up to.

To this day I have no idea why people project their Good, Projective Daddy issues onto this character with abstract moral grandstanding in no way reflects the reality of the story as told. It seriously blows my mind.

Especially after TLOU2 debunks this misinterpretation beyond a shadow of a doubt: do you think Naughty Dog was wrong about their own story/intent? Seriously? And yet that's what it comes down to.

Go hug your dad or play mini-golf with him or something. He's probably a decent guy. Joel isn't.

Oh, we're not talking about Joel in this thread anymore. We're talking about the anon who thinks they're a really great person because they'd kill their child, mom, and wife, and thinks that anyone who wouldn't do the same is terrible.

Eh there's a lot of melodramatic grandstanding from both sides in this thread from what I can see about the ~doom of civilization~ and how anon would "stay in Omelas" but the reality is we all live in Omelas under capitalism and none of us have walked away from the multitudes of unwilling sacrifices made in the name of our comforts.

Regardless of your philosophical perspective on the moral rightness of Joel's actions at the hospital, Joel himself simply did not do what he did for these moral or philosophical reasons. Like, objectively. Unambiguously. As text. Because Joel sucks.

Would some other person do what Joel as a moral objection against predicating the advancement of civilization on the (potentially unwilling) sacrifice of the few for the sake of the many? Possibly. Or out of respect for Ellie's life/individual autonomy? Also possibly. Or because the Fireflies' methods may not be as legitimate or certain as they first suggested? Sure.

But that other person would have said so to Ellie, and then would have dealt with the fallout of her potential disagreement with that choice. Joel lies to her to remove that possibility, because what if that is what she wanted? She's made allusions to that being the case throughout the game. Not only might she think he was a monster and break ties with him, but she might find some way to go back, some other group willing to try it. Then he loses what he actually cares about, which was never his principles, nor Ellie herself nor her right to choose what happens to her, but his own feelings towards her and his chance to regain what he lost. His lie is calculated entirely with this in mind.

Joel is awful and the story rightfully condemns him as such.

+1000

I don't care about Joel. I care about real people who make declarations about how great they are, supposing they'd always do the "right" thing (whatever they've told themselves that happens to be), that the strength of their convictions would never fail, and that anyone who falters when actually faced with a painful ethical dilemma is a bad person. I care about real people who lack any understanding or empathy for those with ordinary human weaknesses, and then pat themselves on the back for what they view as their own moral righteousness. They care so much about people that they hold them in contempt.

But the discussion isn't about how "anyone who falters when faced with an ethical dilemma is a bad person" it's about a particular guy who shot up a hospital for the sake of his own feelings to the common good of no one but himself then lied about it purely to conserve his own benefit.

I appreciate your graciousness toward human failings, but respectfully, if that's not a "bad person", who _is_?

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 18:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 18:34 (UTC) - Expand

Wow. You seem to have some deep seated issues there, my friend.

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Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 18:35 (UTC) - Expand

THANK YOU JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

Apparently having the position that "saving humanity" > "self-interested saving of dead daughter proxy" is "oooooh you think you're a gReaT pERsOn". My god.

As I said, I just finished the game, and if this is what the fandom is like I'm gonna pass. And I thought the worst stupid-ass misreadings were in the MDZS fandom....

The TLOU fandom legit makes me feel insane because it's not like this AAA zombie cover shooter required Ulysses levels of media literacy to understand. Like, was I the stupid one???? If Joel makes some unambiguously heroic decision to "save" Ellie from the dastardly murderous Fireless, like they seemed to think, then the whole story is pointless. The narrative is empty. It would have the depth and meaning of Mario saving the Princess from Bowser. But his final conversation with Ellie might as well be them turning to the camera to say "JOEL DID NOT RAMPAGE THROUGH A HOSPITAL MURDERING UNARMED DOCTORS AS A RIGHTEOUS ACT, HE DID SO BECAUSE HAVING A SECOND CHANCE AT RAISING A DAUGHTER IS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THAN BOTH THE POSSIBILITY OF A BETTER FUTURE AND THAT PROXY DAUGHTER'S OWN WANTS."

Then TLOU2 comes out and it treats Joel badly and it's shocked pikachu face and tears of rage all the way down from the fandom while I'm sitting there like. Yes. That was the text. That was the story. That was always the story. You deluded yourself into thinking otherwise because????? Feelings??? You really liked Joel and Ellie???? Something something giraffe????

Honestly just seems to be daddy issues, man. Or, like, they would save Ellie. And Joel saved Ellie! So Joel has to be morally right. Because they're morally right! My strong protective feelings regarding my loved ones trump the lives of all others and the betterment of humanity and the wishes/desires/free will of said loved ones if it means I lose them because that's sad for me--- no, because it's wrong! It's wrong not to want that! You're the evil one, not me! So you get essays of spin about what is not by any means an ambiguous narrative.

Personally, I'd like to think that I'd make a different choice, but even if I didn't, I would lay it all out for the person I loved why I made that choice (Fireflies didn't actually seem like they knew what they were doing, they misrepresented themselves/the risks/the possibility of a cure and the ramifications were lethal). But if I did so, I would know that they might hate me for it. Or that they might go back, or to someone else with medical skills/scientific knowledge, to try again, and I might lose them anyway.

I'd also like to think I wouldn't just murder everyone I saw and would use the minimal amount of lethal force required, take my loved one, hold the doctors hostage, and be like "alright, we're going to wake her up and see what she thinks about this" with the door open to coming back if they improve their extraction technique, etc., or finding another group that's more above board. Joel doesn't do this because this isn't what motivates him. What motivates him is 100% satisfaction for his own feelings through his desire for a daughter do-over. If he does this, he might lose her. So he doesn't. BECAUSE JOEL SUCKS HE IS THE WORST.

All of this! The ONLY thing that gives me pause and the slightest approval for Joel is that we have no idea if anyone told Ellie it was a fatal procedure. I'm big on informed consent. Wake her up, ask her if they told her. Does it change her mind? But Joel took that choice away from her, too. He didn't do it because the procedure might be against Ellie's wishes, or that it won't work. He did it because he would be hurt by her death. He seemed pretty damn sure she would have marched right back there, otherwise why lie?

As you said, the text explicitly lays out that Joel is Not A Good Person. Tess says it right out, we see it when Joel leaves that family with a small child to die, being on "both sides" of the help-me-ambush, he won't let Ellie talk about Sam because it makes him uncomfortable, etc. This man does not give a shit about anyone but himself. He "saves" Ellie for himself, not because the procedure might be unethical/impossible. I do not understand why people are getting so up in arms defending him.

And speaking of Tess, omg... She gets infected trying to get Ellie to the capital and she tasks Joel with seeing it through to the end with the hope that the infections can stop. And Joel just shat all over her death because he never got over Sarah's. Man, Joel is an asshole.

Thank you I feel so much less insane talking to someone else who was able to parse and understand the narrative of this AAA zombie cover shooter. Joel was a POS from the start and the story goes out of its way to recount the ways but d'awwwwwwwwwww he has Dad Feelings, and d'aaawwwwww Ellie is cute, and d'aaaaawwwww the zoo and suddenly it's shocking that he's treated like the POS he always was and has remained (albeit one with understandable, human failings, which is what makes the story compelling).

Re: Who is Your Least Favorite Character?

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-26 18:57 (UTC) - Expand

No. The position in contention is, "I would kill my child, my mom, and my wife, and anyone who doesn't is a bad person."

The position of contention is that I would allow my child, my mom, and my wife, and MYSELF to go through with the procedure because it's the right thing to do. Anyone who would prioritize their own life over the lives of millions is, by definition, a bad person....

Is it possible that, when the chips are down, I can't go through with it? Absolutely. And I would be a horrible person and probably wouldn't be able to live with myself. There are multiple examples of people throughout history who have not done the right thing in the moment and then basically killed themselves, either directly or through drinking because they can't handle their own immorality.

Also, keep in mind that this is in a very specific set of circumstances. This isn't a whim. This is 20 years, TWO DECADES, after billions of deaths, with no end in sight. No vaccine attempt has worked. Society has collapsed, everyone is either in imminent danger of death all the time or living under martial law being abused by the military and each other. Suddenly, something changes, someone has developed immunity (a thing which happens in real life) which could absolutely lead to a vaccine (again, a thing that has happened in real life). Something that has the slightest chance of returning humanity to the life they had before, of saving millions of lives from death, starvation, abuse, etc. Something that can defeat this plague. This is, quite literally, the saving of the entire human race. And you think it's moral to leave an entire planet of people to die because you'll be sad that one specific person has died?

You seem to have some issues that you need to work through.

It would not make you a horrible person. It would make you ordinary. How can you say you want to save humanity when by your definition most people are, due to their ordinariness, horrible people?

It is not moral to sacrifice someone because you've decided it's the right thing to do, without them having a say or a choice in the matter. It's especially not moral to do it for what is, as far as I can tell from my knowledge of this story, something that's experimental and is not guaranteed to work.

When we create vaccines in real life, we do not kill people with natural immunity in order to synthesize them. We certainly don't do it while lying to them about the process, keeping from them the knowledge that they're going to die. That would be deeply, deeply unethical, in any context.

Do you think it would be okay for you force your loved ones into it, if they knew exactly what was about to happen to them and they told you "no?" And what if it didn't work? What if you forced your loved ones to die for nothing?