[ SECRET POST #6413 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6413 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #917.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I can totally get this, especially if it’s turned into their whole identity. OTOH you’d be amazed how many people are like that behind closed doors even if it’s still illegal in their country. Also, America isn’t the only place that has legalization. There are places with actual legalization, not the smattering of levels of decriminalization or legalization across the US.

[ariakas]

Yeah lmao "backbuttoning" out of stories with "casual weed use, especially when the canon media isn't American" is a very funny snit to have for people like me from a country with full legalization where your grandma probably casually tokes.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not OP but I also really dislike casual weed usage in fanfic, and I'm from British Columbia. *shrug*

I just find it unrelatable. I HATE being high. It's a really bad time for me. And the sheer mundane ubiquity of weed usage around me, when I simply cannot relate to the experience in any way, has made the concept of casual weed usage tedious to me. And because fanfic involves a high level of identifying/relating to the characters, when they just casually pull out a joint it feels quite jarring and sort of alienating to me, as someone who has never and will never experience weed as a pleasurable and relaxing thing.

[ariakas]

That's very interesting to me, because I'm the same way - I grew up around a lot of pot smoking, but I never enjoyed it myself (it just makes me sleepy/paranoid). Yet because I know many people who do enjoy it, I have no issues imagining that the character I'm reading about might also enjoy it. It doesn't feel "alienating/jarring" to me when a character likes something I don't, whether it's pot or a band I think sucks or an activity I find tiresome or a sexual preference I don't have. The character isn't me; humanity is diverse in tastes and experiences.

"because fanfic involves a high level of identifying/relating to the characters"

I can't say that it ever does, or has, to me? At least no more than any other type of fiction. And much of the point of fiction is to get in the head of - or to come to understand, feel empathy for - someone who isn't like you, who doesn't have your experiences or your preferences. Why would fanfiction be any different?

Jesus, is this why so many characters in fanfic have the same diagnosis as the author these days? You can't imagine what it's like to be someone else? Or don't want to?

[(Anonymous)]

Jesus, is this why so many characters in fanfic have the same diagnosis as the author these days? You can't imagine what it's like to be someone else? Or don't want to?

You know, I think this may be exactly it. I said below that I find anon's take bizarre, but now that I'm thinking about it more, it's not the first time I've encountered it. In fact, my son came home several years ago with a book from school that had exactly that message: it was about a boy who couldn't find any books he liked because none of them had characters that were exactly like him. He solved the problem by writing his own books about himself. We found it horrifically self-centered and got rid of it.

While representation is broadly beneficial, I wonder if the way it's been presented has led to young people genuinely believing that in order to be "good," characters need to be mirror images of themselves.

[ariakas]

Yes, absolutely, this is a warped/stunted interpretation of the issues of underrepresentation. The real issue being that some groups/types of people always/almost always/the vast majority of the time are the protagonists, or fullsomely developed, or given the point of view, and never have to do the work of empathizing/wearing another's shoes, while everyone else is expected to do that work to enjoy fiction.

Empathizing and seeing from different points of view in and of itself is not a problem; far from it, it is one of fiction's primary purposes. It becomes a problem when this is unilaterally unidirectional towards the privileged from the marginalized broadly, and as a trend. "Non-pot-enjoyer" is not a marginalized group. I am not "alienated" by a fictional character enjoying a hoppy craft beer, even though I personally find them disgusting.

[(Anonymous)]

I can't say that it ever does, or has, to me?

Okay, good for you? For me, however, there are certain things I find jarring or alienating when it's one of my blorbos who is doing them, because I can't relate, and because I have negative associations with the thing they're doing.

You're up in here being sort of judgmental about this ("Jesus, is this why..." and "Can you not imagine what it's like to be someone else?" *eyeroll* Sure, Jan.) But I would be very, very surprised if you didn't have anything - not one single thing - that you just don't like to see/read/imagine your characters doing because of your own personal feelings about that thing. And if by some long odds you really don't have anything like that...congratulations? What an objective, rational, and sensible reader you are! This must truly be a point of great pride for you!

Personally, I grew up with parents who were stoners, and parent's friends who were all stoners, and friends who were stoners. It was boring and sometimes slightly obnoxious to watch from the outside, and it was nothing but miserable when I tried it myself. So I do not have any positive associations with pot, only negative ones. I don't like to watch my blorbos get stoned, because I can't relate to it, and because my associations with it are that it's boring, mundane, aesthetically unappealing, and slightly obnoxious in its ubiquity.

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, dude, but just remember, "Humanity is diverse in tastes and experiences."

[ariakas]

Of course I have things that I don't relate to, that I don't like, that "rub me the wrong way," or make me downright uncomfortable to read/think about. But the point of fiction is to engage with the mentality and humanity of those people who don't see things the way I do. Sometimes that means being uncomfortable.

Because they're not "blorbos," they're fictional representations of human beings. Including those people who have different thoughts, desires, and values. And if those representations have different histories and different realities than your own they will have different thoughts, desires and values. Making characters into dolls onto which you project yourself wholecloth isn't storytelling, it's navel-gazing.

And yes, while I find your way of engaging with fiction myopic and unrelatable, if a character thought like you I wouldn't "backbutton"; I wouldn't be "alienated"; I'd let the writer show me how to empathize with your perspective, which is exactly what you've done by giving your own backstory regarding how you came to your views, so I know that you know that this is how writing works. You've shown me your perspective so that I can see it, so that I can empathize.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

But the point of fiction is to engage with the mentality and humanity of those people who don't see things the way I do. Sometimes that means being uncomfortable. Because they're not "blorbos," they're fictional representations of human beings.

Do you not understand the fanfic does not equal all of fiction? Like, you know those people who are obsessed with healthy eating to the point that it's become an all-out eating disorder? That's kind of how you're coming across ITT except with intellectualism in reading practices taking the place of food.

I am not reading The Great Sex Olympics of 221B (wonderful as it is) for the sake of self-betterment. I've read plenty of things and continue to read plenty of things that give my mind something to chew on and build with. But I am reading The Great Sex Olympics of 221b because it's fun and hot and it gives my brain dopamine when little else will.

I have no (0, zero) interest in reading fanfiction on the internet that makes me uncomfortable in any way that I don't innately want to be uncomfortable.

In fact, it's fascinating to me that you say you find my way of engaging with fiction "myopic and unrelatable" because - setting aside that you actually don't know much about my way of engaging with fiction, and what you do know of it you only learned after making all these incorrect assumptions - I've begun to suspect that the feeling is mutual. I find there to be something distinctly myopic and unrelatable about treating all fiction as existing for the same purpose and requiring the same approach from its readers.

Hell, even the fact that you are offended by my referring to favored characters as "blorbos" and have attempted to deny that they are my blorbos is strikingly myopic (and pretentious) to me. Do you not understand that they can be both at once? That my favoring them in that way and wanting to consume fannish content about them purely for enjoyment and no other reason, doesn't in any way negate or degrade their literary quality as characters, nor does it negate or degrade my ability to engage with them in other, more intellectually rigorous ways?

You seem to have convinced yourself that the fact I don't want to read my faves, who I am vicariously experiencing the story through, casually partaking in an activity I have a personal squick for, indicates something about my ability to empathize with fiction, and even in general.

This is the most out of pocket shit I've experienced on the internet in a while.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, this is a super weird and tbh kind of creepy take on fanfic to me. I like to read fic about the villains of my canon not because I identify with or relate to them but because their thought processes are so completely alien to me that I find them absolutely fascinating and I like fic that delves into their minds and tries to explain what makes them tick.

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt buy like. I dont want to see characters have babies. I find it unrelatable and offputting. That's my prerogative and if you have an issue with it, I have an off you can fuck. In a similar vein, I also dont really want them to toke. The toking is a more minor squick for me, but my reasons for it are similar. Are you honestly so incapable of respecting other fan's preferences that you cant accept that some things are just a hard Nope for some people? Because if so, then that's the actual creepy perspective here.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, you can have whatever preference you like. You are free to, say, choose to be a middle-aged woman who only reads YA, and freaks out whenever a text remotely challenges her. And I am free to think that this means you've never grown up, and are hampered in your ability to appreciate and engage with fiction.

[(Anonymous)]

I find it unrelatable and offputting.

I mean, yeah, that's a problem if you genuinely can't relate to characters who have different thoughts/feelings/experiences than you. I don't want kids myself but I know that there are people who do and I wouldn't have any problems empathizing with or relating to a character who has or wants kids because I can understand their feelings even if I don't personally share them myself.

[ariakas]

I wouldn't call it creepy, but it is indicative of the zeitgeist re: media literacy/media consumption.

[(Anonymous)]

This is such a bizarre take. You need characters to be just like you in order to not be put off by them? One of the major points of fiction, whether fanfic or otherwise, is to experience the unfamiliar, and to empathize with people who are not like us.

[(Anonymous)]

If someone decides to write one of my favorite characters as an avid attender of metal concerts, or a rock climber, or a collector of beanie babies, when they are never established as doing those things in canon, then it's going to be jarring. And it's going to be all the more jarring, and potentially off-putting, if the reader themselves has negative feelings and associations with death metal, rock climbing, or beanie babies.

This is not that complicated. The fact that you're jumping straight from, "I don't like to imagine my faves doing thing because I myself have only negative associations with thing," and running all the way to "You need other people to be JuSt LiKe YoU in order to not be put off by them," is such a leap it's wild. Is reading comprehension on the fritz in this thread today or something?

[ariakas]

Oh come on. Showing a character casually enjoying a soft recreational drug, like alcohol or nicotine or coffee or cannabis, something that is very normal for most adults in many of the cultures portrayed in media, is not the same as making them an avid fan of a hobby that never comes up in canon.

Nobody is "jumping straight from" anything you didn't say yourself by stating you were "alienated" by someone pulling out a joint "because fanfic involves a high level of identifying/relating to the characters", i.e., that you are then unable to do that because you personally don't like it.

Your words aren't being twisted.

[(Anonymous)]

Nayrt but yeah, they really are being twisted.

The problem here seems to be with the way you and a couple other anon's here understand identifying with a character vs. What it means to me, op, and other anon(s) here.

I, and likely op, identify with (i.e. feel emotionally connected to and experience the story vicariously through) tons of characters who are nothing like us in so many ways. But if something is a squick for us, we dont want to read about our favorite character, whom we are essentially sitting in as we experience the narrative, engaging with that thing that squicks us in a way that is overtly positive. Because it's unenjoyable and disruptive to the enjoyment and immersion in the story - as squicks are.

I don't think op thought there would be anything controversial about their comment (nor would I think there was). Experiencing a story through vicarious identification with the main character(s) is extremely common; arguably standard. Not wanting to engage with known squick is extremely common, and engaging with a known squick when the character we are vicariously experiencing the story through actively enjoys the squick tends to make the whole thing more acutely unenjoyable.

I dont think the OP used the word squick specifically, even though it seems clear that's what pot is to them, so maybe that's where the confusion is coming from. Otherwise I have to idea. What they said made total sense to me and I didn't get any of what you seem to be interpreting from it at all.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS. you can really tell that some people itt view toking as like, a default behavior, because they're so triggered when someone DOESN'T like the characters (who dont ever toke in canon) to toke because they don't personally enjoy it, but they choose to write characters who dont ever toke in canon as toking, and somehow that's...not coming from a place of personal preference and relatability? Lol, K.

[ariakas]

I don't enjoy toking at all. It's still not "alienating" or "jarring" to have a character toke, because fictional characters aren't me and don't have to enjoy exactly the same things I do to be relatable.

[(Anonymous)]

When you link your dislike of encountering something in fiction to your ability to personally identify with it, yes, that comes across as you saying that you need characters to be like you in order to read about them.

Fanfic that's out of character is a totally different issue from fanfic that involves characters doing things that you personally don't like.

[(Anonymous)]

If someone decides to write one of my favorite characters as an avid attender of metal concerts, or a rock climber, or a collector of beanie babies, when they are never established as doing those things in canon, then it's going to be jarring.

Why would it be jarring? Canon doesn't show every moment of a character's life. If a canon is about fighting space aliens and 90% of the canon screentime is dedicated to that, do you just assume that the characters don't have any hobbies that they do in their rare downtime or something?

It would be one thing if any of those things contradicted what we actually are shown in canon (e.g., saying a character is an avid attender of metal concerts when canon shows us that they dislike being around large groups of people, or that they're a rock climber when they have a canon fear of heights), but otherwise I don't understand what would be jarring about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Jesus christ, anon, you somehow managed to trip into a hornet's nest here. I had no idea that...*checks notes*...identifying vicariously with your blorbos and...*checks notes*...having the odd hard Nope was apt to be so infuriating for some people.

I'm sorry but of fucking course I identify with my favorite characters. I identify vicariously with every last one of them, including the fascist psychopaths. People here seem to bafflingly think that having one (1) hard nope that you just cant get down with means you want the character to be just like you???

Where are y'all getting this from?? That is not how it works! I can vibe with and relate to all sorts of insane, unrelatable things about characters I like, but not every last thing. Some things I just cant vibe with or relate to. Some things I'm just not feeling it. And that's f i n e.

Sorry you triggered the hornets nest, OP. I get you. I hope you have a good day. :)

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I can vibe with and relate to all sorts of insane, unrelatable things about characters I like, but not every last thing. Some things I just cant vibe with or relate to.

You get it, you get it!

I identify vicariously with every last one of them, including the fascist psychopaths.

This gave me a laugh 'cause it's so darn true.

Honestly, thank you, comments like this confirm that yes, I did say what I thought I did. The people taking it out of context are...I don't actually know what's going on there. It kind of seems like they're really angry about the dumbing down of media literacy and I happened to say a couple of things that they took (mistakenly) as dog whistles, signifying that People Like Me are the problem with media literacy. I'm really not, but there'll be no convincing them of it.

Frustrating but funny. Guess my number came up on the Wheel Of Misconstrued Comments yesterday. Oh, F!S, never change.

[(Anonymous)]

Anybody in this thread smoke weed?