[ SECRET POST #1562 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1562 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

oh god stop using red text on jpegs

also, now affiliated with pkmnsecret! Check em out if you're interested. (:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 109 secrets from Secret Submission Post #223.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

21. http://i51.tinypic.com/20rtxcz.png

[(Anonymous)]

To be honest, a LOT of things bother me about that com.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

I have a serious question, which may come off as really ignorant, so forgive me, but can somebody explain to me, at exactly WHAT point of a trans-person's transformation should we be referring to them as their "true" gender?

And I am not talking "because they say they are, leave it alone" type of excuse... because I honestly feel that's a little invalid. I hear that excuse a lot and it's starting to legitimately bother me. People -think- they have disorders all the time, so why is transgender the one disorder we are all expected to drop everything about, back up, and say "OH I'm sorry, you're ____." without a second thought about it? People use transgender problems in place of actual self-hate and escapism problems quite often, and many of these self-proclaimed "FtM" or "MtF" folks I've seen have never actually received therapy or confirmation for their disorder. So at what point, may I ask, is it simply enabling negative self-hate behavior by encouraging somebody to be something they want to be so that they may escape themselves by calling them the gender they demand to be called, and at what point is it 100% wrong to call them the opposite gender they want to hear? This line seems so vague and over-looked that it's really starting to concern me, in that a lot of folks are not getting the actual help they need. Because to me, I feel really uncomfortable going with the "oh yeah, you're (insert other gender here)" stuff until said person has actually been seen by a therapist, diagnosed, etc.

To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed... It's not healthy to encourage such behavior.

And in the case of furries, in which very many of them already try to run from themselves under the online "image" or a fursuit of a character they'd rather be, there are already escapism and self-hate issues going on. So why, may I ask, is it fair to either side to be so forced to use their "chosen" gender? It's about the equivalent of saying "So-and-so isn't a human, they are a wolf. They truly feel like they are a wolf so calling them a human would be hurtful to them."

I'm not trying to be insensitive, because I have friends who ARE transgender and I have been supporting them while they are having the most miserable time of their lives in the wrong body, spending thousands upon thousands on therapy sessions and hormone therapy and corrective surgery... but I want some clarification on where the line is drawn, because there ARE still people who actually HAVE the disorder, and people who are claiming it because they cannot admit that deep down they don't love themselves (and maybe just don't realize this and can't admit it to themselves).

I was bordering FtM territory myself, but later discovered that I just didn't love myself deep down... and now, after working on that, my FtM thoughts have passed and I feel much better in general. I feel that if my friends had continued to push the "male" gender on me if I had requested it, I may not have seen the real self-hate below it. This is WHY therapy is there for transgendered individuals, and why they have to jump through so many hoops to get to their hormone therapy... too often there is more going on that just "I feel like I'm the wrong gender". Those things need to be worked on, first...

So I ask, where is the line? Because I would say its only right to push this issue on folks if the person has been actually diagnosed and is being treated through therapy, or in the transitioning stages where they are to go out publicly, presenting themselves as male, etc. It seems almost rude to everyone else to constantly yell at each-other to go with such-and-such gender. :/

Mmm, in before wankfest o.x; But I am trying to be sincere, here. I shall brace for impact, regardless, because my head ALWAYS gets bitten off when I bring this up, it seems. And I do apologize if this is jumbled and unclear; I am recovering from the flu.

[kathkin.livejournal.com]

...People should be referred to by whichever pronoun they choose for themselves? Seems pretty simple to me.
No comment on the rest of your post.

[akai_senshi.livejournal.com]

This is WHY therapy is there for transgendered individuals, and why they have to jump through so many hoops to get to their hormone therapy...

I agree with you here. But, just to be safe, if the party in question is not verifiably batshit insane* (and you can tell from reading their posts), refer to them as the gender they want to be referred to as.

*By which I mean "has all the signs of a serious psychological disorder such as schizophrenia or bipolar", NOT "ships something different/has a different opinion from what I do".

And yeah, some people who claim to be trans aren't really trans (like there are some people who claim to have Asperger's or OCD but don't). If they somehow get hormones, this will come back to bite them in the ass. I myself have been given a GID diagnosis by three separate shrinks, but am not on hormones yet because I also have Tourette's and anxiety problems and they want to get THAT out of the way first before the six months of required therapy for testosterone. And I am patient and understand why this is.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course. n.n That's what I'm getting at.

Hoorah for a mature response, I thank you. <3

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

"Batshit insanity" (great way to refer to people diagnosed with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, by the way - did you just assume no one with either diagnosis would see your comment?) doesn't rule out transness, and psychosis or delusions related to believing that one is a member of another sex a) does not present the way trans people present at all, and b) is pretty fucking rare.

Also, self-dx of Asperger's Syndrome tends to have a very high accuracy rate, per professionals who actually deal with autistic clients and have published a lot of autism-related research. The "someone who claims to have AS and doesn't really have it" thing seems to be a pretty big straw man to me.

[val-tyr.livejournal.com]

"I have a serious question, which may come off as really ignorant, so forgive me, but can somebody explain to me, at exactly WHAT point of a trans-person's transformation should we be referring to them as their "true" gender?"

When they ask, you thick berk.

[equius.livejournal.com]

"To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed... It's not healthy to encourage such behavior."

This is a good comment. I can respect anyone's decision to transition, but with it being so commonplace so suddenly around the internet... it reminds me of how self-diagnosed asperger's was a thing a few years ago. It comes off as a convenience to explain why someone, especially someone who's young, doesn't "fit in." Are you really the wrong gender, or are you just dissatisfied with some other aspect of your life?

Sorry if I sound dismissive, but I had this boyfriend years ago. He had convinced himself that his life would magically do a 180 if he became a girl. He didn't consider the consequences or the expense of therapy, both psychological and hormonal. The only thing on his mind was "my life sucks but if I was a pretty girl everyone would love me and in turn I would love myself." No. It doesn't work that way.

I don't know where "the line" is except to be respectful? Then in the future, whether they make the transition for real or change their mind, use the appropriate pronoun? If you argue, you're just going to piss them off. Entitled commenters are already pissed off. :P

[ivavros.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying and I'm not gonna start wank lol, mostly because I have a friend who, well, pretty much picks up other peoples' 'diagnoses', whether they are that or not, and claims to be trans now. Their SO is the same way. Yeah, no. It's irritating when people do that, but that also doesn't mean you can just say "LOL PROVE YOUR TRANS OR I'M NOT CALLING YOU THIS/THAT!" to anyone. I get where you're coming from, but personally, if someone wants to be called sir/ma'am/sie/whatever, I will follow that. If they're confused and don't know for sure, you're right, it'll bite them later on, but who are we to judge? Everyone's real and their opinions are legit, imo. Roll with it.

[citrinesunset.livejournal.com]

You should refer to them by whatever pronoun they wish you to use. It isn't your place to decide if they've "earned" it yet or not, which is how your post comes across.

Seriously, what harm does it do to you to try to be respectful? How is that forcing anything on you? How is the (slim) possibility that someone isn't genuine or is asking for a pronoun hastily worse than the possibility of disrespecting someone who's probably already having a shitty time trying to get respect?

Also, there's no particular point during transition where a person "becomes" a new gender because not all trans people take the same path to transition. Different people have different desires, priorities, and practical limitations. If you were to say that only trans people who have been on hormone therapy for an extended time deserve new pronouns, you'd be discounting anyone who has medical problems that preclude them from being on hormones, for example.

[xanykaos.livejournal.com]

It's about the equivalent of saying "So-and-so isn't a human, they are a wolf. They truly feel like they are a wolf so calling them a human would be hurtful to them."

Wow. That's just...wow. I thought you had to be trying to be that disgustingly ignorant. Basically, google why it's just as stupid to say "I don't care what color you are, black, white, or purple with polka dots!" Inventing a mythical fantasy race/gender to make a comparison to an actual situation for the sake of your argument...yeah, no, it's a pretty lousy analogy. (Because look, no one's really a wolf. Wolves are not people, and people who forget that and try to treat wolves like people often end up dead. But there actually are trans).


Where's the line? It's not of your freaking business, is my guess. How much of your business is it if this person has been through very personal (very expensive) things like that? They say they prefer a pronoun, that is the pronoun you use, end of story.

As for the influx on the internet, while I don't doubt there being some kids finding their feet and sussing themselves out, it's also worth remembering that the internet is pretty much the easiest place to present yourself as your preferred gender. Which is not a fantasy race. You get your head bitten off because...well. Really.

[lurksinclosets.livejournal.com]

Not everybody can afford or otherwise have access to a therapist, and even if they eventually do (which they would require to make a medical transition anyway), what's wrong with giving them an 'incorrect' pronoun until then?

Cisfolk get mislabeled online all the time, it sure as hell doesn't mess them up and make them question themselves.

[oflittlebrain.livejournal.com]

but i actually don't get why you are so concerned about this

if people are mislabeling themselves then it's seriously none of your business. just respect their wishes, plz. it's actually not complicated at all. :/

[fm-gatekeeper.livejournal.com]

To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed

...Except, see, I've had people do this, and that's exactly what I did. I tend to think people are going to know more about their own mental state than I do. Now take "mental state" and insert gender, sexuality, whatever.

Honestly, it's opinions like this that are the reason why I almost never tell anyone I'm bisexual. It's a slightly different issue, but not vastly so--not too long ago, alternate (and by that I mean not heterosexual) sexualities were considered disorders by a large percentage of the populous (and many, many people still think that). I've been told that by telling people I'm bisexual, I'm attention-seeking, just trying to be "edgy," or just haven't accepted my "true" sexuality--basically, the same kind of crap trans people have to deal with all the time. Half the time I publicly identify as a lesbian just to avoid having to deal with all the crap (and since I'm in a long-term relationship with a fellow female individual, that's what most people would assume anyway). I wish I actually was a lesbian. It'd be easier. And bisexuality is still much more accepted than transexuality, so I can't even imagine what they go through.

Regardless, people know themselves better than you do. The point at which you should start using "he" or "she" is the point at which they request it. It's not an easy thing to have to request, so the fact that they've gotten to the point where they are, in fact, asking you to do so says something about the strength of their own feelings on the matter. I don't think people should jump down other peoples' throats for using the wrong pronoun, but a simple exchange like this?

Person 1: *uses opposite of preferred pronoun*
Person 2: Actually, it's s/he.
Person 1: Oh, sorry. *repeats sentence with preferred pronoun*

I don't see a problem with that.

Personally, I would rather use a person's preferred pronoun out of simple empathy and respect for that person and transpeople in general. Maybe sometimes I'll call someone by a pronoun that they later decide they don't prefer after all, but I'd rather do that than continue refusing to call someone by their preferred pronoun because there's a chance that they'll change their mind (which I understand that you've said you wouldn't do, anyway).

Just my two cents.

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

There's no reason to dissect other people's gender like that. If someone says their gender is X, then their gender is X. Generally speaking, just about every trans person is self-diagnosed and that's why they see a psych or a therapist in the first place. No one needs a psych to tell them what their gender is. If you trust cis people to accurately report their gender, there is no reason to question whether a trans person is accurately reporting their gender.

You can't judge the validity or truth of someone's gender or transness on the basis of other conditions they may have, hobbies they may have, or fetishes they may have. There is absolutely no correlation there, none.

So the line is: Just use the pronouns and gender they tell you is correct. That's the line. It may not be accurate and they may change their minds later, but so what? That's really not your concern. Most of the time? It is accurate.

The reason for gatekeeping is not because there is a high risk of cis people transitioning - the system is set up in such a way that it is fairly simple for cis people to slip through the cracks and get hormones and surgery, and even so: Very few do. The alleged reason is to protect cis people from accidentally transitioning, but the truth is that trans people end up needing to lie to access care, and that many find it difficult to navigate these obstacles and wasting precious time getting to the point where they can get the care they need. And some cannot even get the care they need at all.

A better model would be "informed consent." Perhaps if this were simpler, fewer trans people would go on gray market hormones or purchase from overseas pharmacies.

I'm not going to bite your head off, but I found your comment fairly uninformed in just about every particular.

Anyway, very few (if any) trans people need to be told that they're trans. The actual diagnosis is "gender identity disorder" and the vast majority of

/late to the party

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

I apologize for not responding, but my health got crappier after I made my comment so it's been a while now. @_@;;

I appreciate the input from everyone, and I am sorry that I may have come off as if I wanted to decide what gender another person is. Although I do feel that if some of you had read my comment with a little less emotion behind you, you'd realize I was trying to question mis-diagnosing in general. :P I -do- call folks whatever they want to be called, by default. A lot of assumptions have been made that I just don't respect that, and that's just not true.

[(Anonymous)]

Why do we have to use an asterisk now? I keep looking for the footnote.

[(Anonymous)]

The asterisk is basically to say "trans and other non-gender-conforming people."

[fauxfaia.livejournal.com]

Listen. Furries. Furries. Are you listening to me? Furries. They have no goddamned home training.

You see this face? This is what self-hate looks like. I'm a furry, and I hate about 95% of other furries.

[ginpenguin.livejournal.com]

I'm the same way honestly. Even more so since embracing a feminist perspective and some other social justice ideologies. When it comes to the furry fandom, take everything with a grain of salt. When it comes to people who you don't know well? Treat them with respect provided they have done the same, and use whatever gender pronouns they ask you to use. If you aren't sure and don't want to offend, I find in most cases 'you' or singular 'they' (yes this does exist) is an okay, if somewhat grammatically obtuse stand in. The bottom line is that it's for the trans person to decide themselves what they want to be called. I'm not touching the diagnosis aspect of this post because such things tend to be more complicated than simply black and white, and they can get into scary places if you aren't careful. (I.e pray away the gay, 'curing' things that can't/shouldn't be cured, over/under use of proper medication should it be warranted)

[yuumeko.livejournal.com]

I know nothing about whatever thread your talking about, but honestly I keep accidentally calling my transgender friend a male, not because I'm offensive or whatever, it's an honest mistake. I've known hi-- her for a long time and naturally refer to her as a he. I'm not saying I shouldn't be corrected, but I would like for people not to get their panties in a bunch, especially when she hasn't corrected me before. Maybe its because she's shy, but I want to hear it from her, not someone else (I still haven't).

Also I keep calling her a him because it doesn't MATTER to me. Yes, it probably matters to her, but do know its a trivial detail because very little changes my opinion of her since her switch. Basically, it'd be nice if people would also understand that we don't mean offense if we accidentally slip up.

[(Anonymous)]

Dear lord, this. I was once dogpiled in a fandom_wank thread of all places because I mistakenly used the wrong pronoun for a transman. I didn't do it on purpose... sometimes it's really hard to mentally assign a new pronoun when you've known someone for years upon years. Sometimes it's just a brainfart, I don't mean any harm at all and I feel terribly every time it happens.

[kathkin.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure most trans people (or most sensible ones, anyway) can tell the difference between accidental slip-ups and genuine attacks on their gender identity. People who can easily switch their perception of someone's gender are actually in the minority, so anyone who gets ragey every single time they get called by the wrong pronoun is probably being irrational.