[ SECRET POST #1562 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1562 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

oh god stop using red text on jpegs

also, now affiliated with pkmnsecret! Check em out if you're interested. (:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 109 secrets from Secret Submission Post #223.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

I have a serious question, which may come off as really ignorant, so forgive me, but can somebody explain to me, at exactly WHAT point of a trans-person's transformation should we be referring to them as their "true" gender?

And I am not talking "because they say they are, leave it alone" type of excuse... because I honestly feel that's a little invalid. I hear that excuse a lot and it's starting to legitimately bother me. People -think- they have disorders all the time, so why is transgender the one disorder we are all expected to drop everything about, back up, and say "OH I'm sorry, you're ____." without a second thought about it? People use transgender problems in place of actual self-hate and escapism problems quite often, and many of these self-proclaimed "FtM" or "MtF" folks I've seen have never actually received therapy or confirmation for their disorder. So at what point, may I ask, is it simply enabling negative self-hate behavior by encouraging somebody to be something they want to be so that they may escape themselves by calling them the gender they demand to be called, and at what point is it 100% wrong to call them the opposite gender they want to hear? This line seems so vague and over-looked that it's really starting to concern me, in that a lot of folks are not getting the actual help they need. Because to me, I feel really uncomfortable going with the "oh yeah, you're (insert other gender here)" stuff until said person has actually been seen by a therapist, diagnosed, etc.

To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed... It's not healthy to encourage such behavior.

And in the case of furries, in which very many of them already try to run from themselves under the online "image" or a fursuit of a character they'd rather be, there are already escapism and self-hate issues going on. So why, may I ask, is it fair to either side to be so forced to use their "chosen" gender? It's about the equivalent of saying "So-and-so isn't a human, they are a wolf. They truly feel like they are a wolf so calling them a human would be hurtful to them."

I'm not trying to be insensitive, because I have friends who ARE transgender and I have been supporting them while they are having the most miserable time of their lives in the wrong body, spending thousands upon thousands on therapy sessions and hormone therapy and corrective surgery... but I want some clarification on where the line is drawn, because there ARE still people who actually HAVE the disorder, and people who are claiming it because they cannot admit that deep down they don't love themselves (and maybe just don't realize this and can't admit it to themselves).

I was bordering FtM territory myself, but later discovered that I just didn't love myself deep down... and now, after working on that, my FtM thoughts have passed and I feel much better in general. I feel that if my friends had continued to push the "male" gender on me if I had requested it, I may not have seen the real self-hate below it. This is WHY therapy is there for transgendered individuals, and why they have to jump through so many hoops to get to their hormone therapy... too often there is more going on that just "I feel like I'm the wrong gender". Those things need to be worked on, first...

So I ask, where is the line? Because I would say its only right to push this issue on folks if the person has been actually diagnosed and is being treated through therapy, or in the transitioning stages where they are to go out publicly, presenting themselves as male, etc. It seems almost rude to everyone else to constantly yell at each-other to go with such-and-such gender. :/

Mmm, in before wankfest o.x; But I am trying to be sincere, here. I shall brace for impact, regardless, because my head ALWAYS gets bitten off when I bring this up, it seems. And I do apologize if this is jumbled and unclear; I am recovering from the flu.

[kathkin.livejournal.com]

...People should be referred to by whichever pronoun they choose for themselves? Seems pretty simple to me.
No comment on the rest of your post.

[akai_senshi.livejournal.com]

This is WHY therapy is there for transgendered individuals, and why they have to jump through so many hoops to get to their hormone therapy...

I agree with you here. But, just to be safe, if the party in question is not verifiably batshit insane* (and you can tell from reading their posts), refer to them as the gender they want to be referred to as.

*By which I mean "has all the signs of a serious psychological disorder such as schizophrenia or bipolar", NOT "ships something different/has a different opinion from what I do".

And yeah, some people who claim to be trans aren't really trans (like there are some people who claim to have Asperger's or OCD but don't). If they somehow get hormones, this will come back to bite them in the ass. I myself have been given a GID diagnosis by three separate shrinks, but am not on hormones yet because I also have Tourette's and anxiety problems and they want to get THAT out of the way first before the six months of required therapy for testosterone. And I am patient and understand why this is.

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course. n.n That's what I'm getting at.

Hoorah for a mature response, I thank you. <3

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

"Batshit insanity" (great way to refer to people diagnosed with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, by the way - did you just assume no one with either diagnosis would see your comment?) doesn't rule out transness, and psychosis or delusions related to believing that one is a member of another sex a) does not present the way trans people present at all, and b) is pretty fucking rare.

Also, self-dx of Asperger's Syndrome tends to have a very high accuracy rate, per professionals who actually deal with autistic clients and have published a lot of autism-related research. The "someone who claims to have AS and doesn't really have it" thing seems to be a pretty big straw man to me.

[val-tyr.livejournal.com]

"I have a serious question, which may come off as really ignorant, so forgive me, but can somebody explain to me, at exactly WHAT point of a trans-person's transformation should we be referring to them as their "true" gender?"

When they ask, you thick berk.

[chedranian-girl.livejournal.com]

Word.

[homo-impetus.livejournal.com]

Do you mind if I gank that icon?

[http://users.livejournal.com/kasumi_/]

this, goddamn.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm asking this as a 100% legit question, should we be referring to Astral Married people as Mrs. Severus if they ask to be called so? I mean, IRL if we ignore someone's marriage it's an insult. Isn't it a real marriage if they say it is?

I'm just saying, internet being what it is, I can say I'm President Bill Clinton and get insulted you're not giving me proper respect as a former President of the USA. Would it be a horrible insult for you to ask, hey, BTW, if you're really Clinton.....

I mean I fully believe real life interactions are different, but just because someone might have a real life condition, accepting it without question is VERY insulting and ablist to people who really do deal with the reality of being transgender. It would be like not requiring a handicap placard to use 'the close parking spaces'. The only people who really get screwed are the people who NEED the damn spaces and can't because ordinary jerks get rewarded for pretending to be handicapped. And whining about how it's better for the handicapped people to not get to use the spaces than to make them offer some proof is enraging and TRULY ablist.

Because yeah, in a year or two there's going to be trend backlash and people will be going "Uh huh, trans huh? Are you also a bipolar dyslexic Aspie otherkin?" to everyone and it's going to SUCK for the people who really do need acceptance and support.

[equius.livejournal.com]

"To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed... It's not healthy to encourage such behavior."

This is a good comment. I can respect anyone's decision to transition, but with it being so commonplace so suddenly around the internet... it reminds me of how self-diagnosed asperger's was a thing a few years ago. It comes off as a convenience to explain why someone, especially someone who's young, doesn't "fit in." Are you really the wrong gender, or are you just dissatisfied with some other aspect of your life?

Sorry if I sound dismissive, but I had this boyfriend years ago. He had convinced himself that his life would magically do a 180 if he became a girl. He didn't consider the consequences or the expense of therapy, both psychological and hormonal. The only thing on his mind was "my life sucks but if I was a pretty girl everyone would love me and in turn I would love myself." No. It doesn't work that way.

I don't know where "the line" is except to be respectful? Then in the future, whether they make the transition for real or change their mind, use the appropriate pronoun? If you argue, you're just going to piss them off. Entitled commenters are already pissed off. :P

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

Everything you just said, yes.

And yeah to entitled commenters. XD Yes, I am totally going to go to so-and-so's face and call them something other than what they want to be called! /jerkoff jesture

I was meaning this in more of a way to get people to think a bit harder, rather than immediately react upon emotion. So many of threads like the ones the OP mentioned EXPLODE with so much anger and venom with "that person is male, please call them male" as if everyone is out to bully everyone else by using an incorrect gender. :/ Usually it's a mistake or an accident.

[judo-creature.livejournal.com]

The problem is that Asperger's and gender identity are not in any way comparable.

A good majority of people intrinsically know their gender. It's something coded into their brains, from their biology, hormones, personality, God, Mother Earth, what-have-you. Most trans people I know knew something was wrong with their body-gender correlation when they were children. They don't need someone to tell them that there's something not quite right, because something naturally feels off.

Asperger's affects thinking and behaviour. There is nothing in your mind that tells you that you have Asperger's, usually you have to actually read about it or get it diagnosed. As you can clearly see, this conflicts with the intrinsic knowing that is associated with being trans. We didn't know that my little brother had Asperger's until he was diagnosed when he was older than ten, but my aunt knew that she was a girl when she was six years old. Nobody told her that transgenderism was a thing. She just knew.

Regardless of whether someone is really trans or just legitimately being an idiot, nobody has the right to tell them what pronouns they should be called by. Calling someone him/her/xie does not damage you in any way, and their potential misdiagnosis is none of your business. It's not anyone else's place to not "encourage" their behaviour; you aren't their mommy, you aren't their doctor, and if they want to be called a pronoun that is different from their physical sex, nobody else has the right to disagree. Ever. Period. End of. Full stop.

[retraux.livejournal.com]

except the deal with transition being "commonplace" around the internet is probably that you're only counting the trans people you see and not the cis ones

i mean, if i went around counting how many cis people there are in fandom then would you consider it reasonable of me to say "there are too many of them compared to us, it's weird"? taking note of how many trans people there seem to be comes out of the idea that we're deviations from the default - you're forgetting that everybody else isn't trans. when you measure us up against the cis people you know then i'm pretty sure we're still going to come out as the vast minority every time, no matter how many of us there are.

not to mention the fact that most "professionals" in this field are gatekeeping jackasses who'll refuse you for any reason under the sun. it's really kind of troubling what an emphasis so many people seem to put on having a diagnosis of gid or being 'ready' to undergo therapy or hormone treatment when it's not exactly always easy to get either of these things. i'd say i'm pretty much ready to start hormones - my doctor wouldn't (my country wouldn't). my doctor also thinks that whether i played with action men or barbies as a little kid is what should define my gender for me. that's just the way it is.

[(Anonymous)]

Look, no1curr about your fucking anecdata. Also, "Sorry if I sound [whatever], but" is a good time to STFU because you will sound exactly as you said you weren't trying to sound. Intent is not a magic Get Out of Fail card.

THERE IS NO LINE. RESPECT PEOPLE FOR BEING PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEIR IDENTITY MAY BE, WHETHER OR NOT YOU DEIGN TO BELIEVE THEM. TREAT OTHERS WITH AS MUCH RESPECT AS YOU FEEL ENTITLED TO. THIS IS NOT A DIFFICULT CONCEPT.

JFC, you people are so thick.

[ivavros.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying and I'm not gonna start wank lol, mostly because I have a friend who, well, pretty much picks up other peoples' 'diagnoses', whether they are that or not, and claims to be trans now. Their SO is the same way. Yeah, no. It's irritating when people do that, but that also doesn't mean you can just say "LOL PROVE YOUR TRANS OR I'M NOT CALLING YOU THIS/THAT!" to anyone. I get where you're coming from, but personally, if someone wants to be called sir/ma'am/sie/whatever, I will follow that. If they're confused and don't know for sure, you're right, it'll bite them later on, but who are we to judge? Everyone's real and their opinions are legit, imo. Roll with it.

[citrinesunset.livejournal.com]

You should refer to them by whatever pronoun they wish you to use. It isn't your place to decide if they've "earned" it yet or not, which is how your post comes across.

Seriously, what harm does it do to you to try to be respectful? How is that forcing anything on you? How is the (slim) possibility that someone isn't genuine or is asking for a pronoun hastily worse than the possibility of disrespecting someone who's probably already having a shitty time trying to get respect?

Also, there's no particular point during transition where a person "becomes" a new gender because not all trans people take the same path to transition. Different people have different desires, priorities, and practical limitations. If you were to say that only trans people who have been on hormone therapy for an extended time deserve new pronouns, you'd be discounting anyone who has medical problems that preclude them from being on hormones, for example.

[xanykaos.livejournal.com]

It's about the equivalent of saying "So-and-so isn't a human, they are a wolf. They truly feel like they are a wolf so calling them a human would be hurtful to them."

Wow. That's just...wow. I thought you had to be trying to be that disgustingly ignorant. Basically, google why it's just as stupid to say "I don't care what color you are, black, white, or purple with polka dots!" Inventing a mythical fantasy race/gender to make a comparison to an actual situation for the sake of your argument...yeah, no, it's a pretty lousy analogy. (Because look, no one's really a wolf. Wolves are not people, and people who forget that and try to treat wolves like people often end up dead. But there actually are trans).


Where's the line? It's not of your freaking business, is my guess. How much of your business is it if this person has been through very personal (very expensive) things like that? They say they prefer a pronoun, that is the pronoun you use, end of story.

As for the influx on the internet, while I don't doubt there being some kids finding their feet and sussing themselves out, it's also worth remembering that the internet is pretty much the easiest place to present yourself as your preferred gender. Which is not a fantasy race. You get your head bitten off because...well. Really.

[lurksinclosets.livejournal.com]

Not everybody can afford or otherwise have access to a therapist, and even if they eventually do (which they would require to make a medical transition anyway), what's wrong with giving them an 'incorrect' pronoun until then?

Cisfolk get mislabeled online all the time, it sure as hell doesn't mess them up and make them question themselves.

[oflittlebrain.livejournal.com]

but i actually don't get why you are so concerned about this

if people are mislabeling themselves then it's seriously none of your business. just respect their wishes, plz. it's actually not complicated at all. :/

[fm-gatekeeper.livejournal.com]

To me it's about the equivalent of just nodding and saying 'okay' when someone claims "I am bipolar, I have all the symptoms" yet they have never been actually diagnosed

...Except, see, I've had people do this, and that's exactly what I did. I tend to think people are going to know more about their own mental state than I do. Now take "mental state" and insert gender, sexuality, whatever.

Honestly, it's opinions like this that are the reason why I almost never tell anyone I'm bisexual. It's a slightly different issue, but not vastly so--not too long ago, alternate (and by that I mean not heterosexual) sexualities were considered disorders by a large percentage of the populous (and many, many people still think that). I've been told that by telling people I'm bisexual, I'm attention-seeking, just trying to be "edgy," or just haven't accepted my "true" sexuality--basically, the same kind of crap trans people have to deal with all the time. Half the time I publicly identify as a lesbian just to avoid having to deal with all the crap (and since I'm in a long-term relationship with a fellow female individual, that's what most people would assume anyway). I wish I actually was a lesbian. It'd be easier. And bisexuality is still much more accepted than transexuality, so I can't even imagine what they go through.

Regardless, people know themselves better than you do. The point at which you should start using "he" or "she" is the point at which they request it. It's not an easy thing to have to request, so the fact that they've gotten to the point where they are, in fact, asking you to do so says something about the strength of their own feelings on the matter. I don't think people should jump down other peoples' throats for using the wrong pronoun, but a simple exchange like this?

Person 1: *uses opposite of preferred pronoun*
Person 2: Actually, it's s/he.
Person 1: Oh, sorry. *repeats sentence with preferred pronoun*

I don't see a problem with that.

Personally, I would rather use a person's preferred pronoun out of simple empathy and respect for that person and transpeople in general. Maybe sometimes I'll call someone by a pronoun that they later decide they don't prefer after all, but I'd rather do that than continue refusing to call someone by their preferred pronoun because there's a chance that they'll change their mind (which I understand that you've said you wouldn't do, anyway).

Just my two cents.

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

There's no reason to dissect other people's gender like that. If someone says their gender is X, then their gender is X. Generally speaking, just about every trans person is self-diagnosed and that's why they see a psych or a therapist in the first place. No one needs a psych to tell them what their gender is. If you trust cis people to accurately report their gender, there is no reason to question whether a trans person is accurately reporting their gender.

You can't judge the validity or truth of someone's gender or transness on the basis of other conditions they may have, hobbies they may have, or fetishes they may have. There is absolutely no correlation there, none.

So the line is: Just use the pronouns and gender they tell you is correct. That's the line. It may not be accurate and they may change their minds later, but so what? That's really not your concern. Most of the time? It is accurate.

The reason for gatekeeping is not because there is a high risk of cis people transitioning - the system is set up in such a way that it is fairly simple for cis people to slip through the cracks and get hormones and surgery, and even so: Very few do. The alleged reason is to protect cis people from accidentally transitioning, but the truth is that trans people end up needing to lie to access care, and that many find it difficult to navigate these obstacles and wasting precious time getting to the point where they can get the care they need. And some cannot even get the care they need at all.

A better model would be "informed consent." Perhaps if this were simpler, fewer trans people would go on gray market hormones or purchase from overseas pharmacies.

I'm not going to bite your head off, but I found your comment fairly uninformed in just about every particular.

Anyway, very few (if any) trans people need to be told that they're trans. The actual diagnosis is "gender identity disorder" and the vast majority of

/late to the party

[filthy-animal.livejournal.com]

I apologize for not responding, but my health got crappier after I made my comment so it's been a while now. @_@;;

I appreciate the input from everyone, and I am sorry that I may have come off as if I wanted to decide what gender another person is. Although I do feel that if some of you had read my comment with a little less emotion behind you, you'd realize I was trying to question mis-diagnosing in general. :P I -do- call folks whatever they want to be called, by default. A lot of assumptions have been made that I just don't respect that, and that's just not true.