[ SECRET POST #1755 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1755 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 206 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Are there any men watching?

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Oh, good! You're turning my disdain of people who contribute nothing to a conversation but a sarcastic remark into support for David's words when, literally, I didn't say ANYTHING positive about him. Moreover, you're doing so in a way that contributes nothing to the conversation but a sarcastic remark! What FUN this is! ♥

And yes, I do get along better with guys. What's your point? And why should any guys be impressed by my stance of neutrality in this debate?

I really, honestly fail to see where you're getting your current motivation to attack my words... Unless you're the giant-penis anon, or even the "reply to this comment" anon. But if that's the case, why am I still talking to you? God, this gets old.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

Good fucking god, what the hell are you even doing?

This is painful to read, I'm embarrassed for you. If you have nothing invested in this conversation, and you have no understanding of why people are upset, shut the fuck up and stop posting

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

This. My goodness.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Because there's never any point to either ASCII dicks or saying "reply to this comment" and I'm sick of people thinking that those are ever counter-arguments.

From what little I did read, David sounds like an ass. But he didn't sound especially misogynistic to me, just... an ass. Equal-opportunity. And the counter-arguments are being just as obnoxious as he is, but with an air of self-important political righteousness.

And the term "feminazi" was not directed at feminists. This was already stated. It was directed, instead, at the vehement rage-fueled trolls that work under the guise of feminism. And I'm with him on that point - feminism is good. But crying foul every time someone says a single thing just because the target is a female is ridiculous. 'Cause men would be laughed at. And already are. Stop asking for equality and simultaneously expecting your double standards, you're making yourselves sound like cranky-ass PMS bitches when you do that.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

Lol, yeah okay.

Psst, this might be helpful to you: http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/778156.html?thread=491673516#t491673516

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

Oh. So you're a misogynist yourself, and perfectly okay with his using misogynistic slurs. That clears some stuff up, thanks.

P.S. "feminazi" is misogynistic and really, really fucking gross and offensive whether it's "directed at feminists" or not. Hope that helps.

P.P.S. asking people not to be sexist asshats =/= "double standards."

Re: Are there any men watching?

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

No. But being a misandrist and then complaining about misogyny is. And not everybody in here has demonstrated this behavior, but a lot of the
"feminazis" have. Hate is hate, regardless of who you target it at. It's still sexist if it's against men. It's still racist if it's against the ethnic majority.

And there is such a thing as face-value calling people bitches because they're being bitches. There's such a thing as calling people pussies if they're being pussies. It might be crude and inappropriate language, but it doesn't mean it's sexist. Because I'm sure you've never called anyone a dick, right?

If you don't treat both sexes equally, then how are you not a hypocrite for demanding equality? No, I honestly am seriously asking this because I honestly, seriously do not understand. If you want to bitch at me, hey, whatever, that's your right. But if you can, somewhere, explain to me the answer to this one question, I would be very appreciative.

And if I may be so bold, if you're right and you have no question in your mind that what you are saying/doing is right, then why are you so reluctant to sign your name to your comments?

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

MISANDRY IS NOT A FUCKING THING.

MEN HAVE NOT BEEN OPPRESSED BY WOMEN FOR CENTURIES. THERE IS NO HISTORY OF WOMEN SPEAKING DOWN TO MEN, DEPRIVING THEM OF THEIR RIGHTS, SHAMING AND CONTROLLING THEIR SEXUALITY, OR OTHERWISE BEING IN A PLACE OF POWER AND PRIVILEGE OVER THEM. WE LIVE IN A FUCKING PATRIARCHY, NOT A MATRIARCHY. THAT MEANS MEN HAVE POWER AND PRIVILEGE OVER WOMEN, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. THAT MEANS WE'RE NOT ON EQUAL FOOTING TO START WITH. THAT MEANS WHEN YOU SAY "we have to treat each sex exactly the same, as if they're already on equal ground" WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS "I think each conversation between a man and a woman exists in a cultural vaccuum," IE YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

PLEASE

CEASE AND DESIST

THERE'S THIS THING CALLED CONTEXT. PLEASE LEARN ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU TYPE A BUNCH OF IGNORANT SHIT LIKE WHAT YOU'VE JUST POSTED.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, this. So much this. Thaaaank you.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Let me just say this:

Misandry exists.

It's generally a non-issue when compared to misogyny. But as I said, hate is still hate and is never okay.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

if you can accept it's a complete nonissue compared to misogyny, why are you still here whining about it and pretending it's equally bad to be a misandrist as it is to be a misogynist

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

this walks the fine line between embarrassing and enraging

on the one hand lol@u because you are so clearly completely ignorant of the world around you

on the other hand

rage@u because you are so clearly ignorant of the world around you and there are so many people like you out there and you all sit congratulating one another on how you know 'feminazis' just aren't needed anymore because sexism is totally a thing of the past and oh we also live in a post-racist society and isn't it wonderful now if only those uppity women and poc could be quiet and quit whining

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

sort of amused that this was never responded to

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

lol no, you're a misogynist. That you're totally okay using "bitch," "bitching," see no problem with terms like "feminazi" and so on? Is proof. You just actually unironically used the words "bitch" and "feminazi" after it was explained to you exactly how and why those words are incredibly offensive. If you're still claiming not to be a misogynist, you might want to look to your language and how fucking horrible it is.

The fact that you even think "misandry" is a thing is treading on thin, thin ground if you're claiming to not be a misogynist. If you honestly, really think men are ~oppressed and discriminated against on a societal scale, on par with misogyny, such that "misandry" would be a problem? You're a misogynist. And also an ignorant ass, but hey. We can't all be scholars.

And no, it's not sexist if it's against men. It's not racist if it's against white people. There is no such thing as "misandry" as much as there's no such thing as "heterophobia". You know why? Because an -ism is dictated by power + privilege. Women DO NOT have societal power over men, nor do they have societal privilege over men, ergo a woman cannot be sexist towards a man. Men are not societally discriminated against, ergo there is no such thing as sexism against men. Misogyny sometimes effects men, but that is still sexism against women, it just happens to have an effect on men once in a while.

And that language is HIDEOUSLY sexist. How can you not see that? Are you just that reprehensible and/or ignorant? Calling a woman a bitch is calling her a female dog (used for breeding). (Calling a man a bitch is also sexist, as it implies that being like a female is bad.) Calling someone a "pussy" implies that female sex parts are bad and wrong, and also that being like a woman -- or being like a woman's sex parts -- is bad and wrong. It's sexist because it's all about how women are bad. And women are -- this may come as a surprise to someone who thinks "misandry" is a problem -- discriminated against in society. There is nowhere NEAR the same connotations to calling someone a "dick," and it's honestly offensive that you compare the two. Even putting aside that cocks are fucking worshiped in our society (where vaginas are hidden, considered shameful and bad, not to be spoken of, etc.), there is a LONG, long history of insults focusing on referring to a person as being "like a woman"-- let's see, we've got calling someone a "girl," "girly," "womanlike," "lady," "bitch," "cunt," "pussy," and on and on and on. (Typing those words made me feel sick. So thanks?) There is no such charged and disgusting history to calling men "dicks." Being called "like a man" is not an insult. It never has been -- being male or male-like is considered a good trait (unless it's being "male-like" or exhibiting traditionally masculine traits, particularly in business, in which case you're a "frigid bitch" or a "man-eater" -- yay, more sexism!). And again, SEXISM AGAINST MEN IS NOT A THING. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MISANDRY. INSULTS AGAINST MEN AND MALE BODY PARTS DO NOT CARRY THE SAME WEIGHT AS THOSE AGAINST/ABOUT WOMEN AND FEMALE BODY PARTS. JFC.


Continued because I hit the character limit. Oops.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

..lolwhut. I don't know what you're fucking talking about here. I want both sexes treated fairly -- and equally inasmuch as is possible. I do NOT think both male and female voices should be equally valued in discussions of feminism because, for beginners, men have privilege in society, and their views of the female experience are colored by that -- and furthermore, because feminism is not about men. Feminism is about women, and I loathe the idea that we have to ~include men~ like they don't get their voices heard in every other single fucking arena. And seriously, the day I take a man seriously when he gets up and starts talking about how feminists behave and how feminists should conduct themselves is the day I give up any and all respect for myself as a feminist. Men control enough of the discourse, and I don't believe they have a right to control feminist discourse. If the context of "within feminist discourse" is not what you were referring to, you're going to have to clarify, because frankly I don't get what you're on about at all.

ftr, I haven't signed my name to my comments thus far for no particular reason. I simply didn't feel especially like using my LJ for discussions with trolls. If you'd prefer, I'll post this comment with my actual LJ. I'll assume you probably want to troll my profile, or something, but whatever. I really have very little to hide. And I just revamped my icons, too.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

I like you

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Thank you <3

Re: Are there any men watching?

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

If you want to believe I'm a misogynist, that's fine. But you don't know me. And I don't have to prove or defend myself to you.

For the record, I think I generally do like you, as you seem to be eloquent and well-spoken, and while I see your defensiveness as excessive and somewhat hostile, I do know that you have reason to feel this way and I respect that.

we've got calling someone a "girl," "girly," "womanlike," "lady," "bitch," "cunt," "pussy," and on and on and on.

Yes, bitch and cunt and pussy are generally not ever seen as positive in any way. But I've got guy friends that would absolutely LOVE to be called girly, and I've got girl friends that would LOATHE being called manly. Those words in particular, I think, are less about the words themselves being negative and more about them being not what someone was aiming for in their appearance/behavior/etc. And generally the male equivalent does not carry the same weight, you're right. But that still doesn't make it okay. Misogyny started somewhere. It hasn't always been a problem. And while misandry is mostly a non-issue (though again, I feel that it does exist, though it is unquestionably barely a fraction of the problem that misogyny is), treating men like dirt just because there's no history to amplify the effect will, in fact, be the foundation that it currently lacks in being an act of sexism, by your definition.

And seriously, the day I take a man seriously when he gets up and starts talking about how feminists behave and how feminists should conduct themselves is the day I give up any and all respect for myself as a feminist.

How about when people get up and point out when someone's behavior is excessive and hurtful? Should it necessarily matter that someone is a feminist if their words are hurtful? Should it matter if the person being insulted is male?

I mean, really, I'm not trying to say that deleted-account is right. But it does bother me when some people - not you, from my limited view here, but some people - use causes such as feminism to act however they want and disregard the consequences because their demographic has been mistreated in the past. It bothers me when the name of equality is used to torment and attack perfectly nice people; that just because someone happens to be part of the "privileged" majority, they don't get any voice, even in defending their own words or actions.

It also bothers me that these conversations cannot, physically CANNOT, take place without the words "privilege" and "ignorance" showing up. The words have been used and abused by so many people that they've begun to lose all meaning. Even when used correctly, they've begun to feel like a meme gone wrong...

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

Go join a feminist101 community or something, seriously. You are so completely clueless it hurts. Learn a little something about context and oppression.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

For the record, I think I generally do like you, as you seem to be eloquent and well-spoken, and while I see your defensiveness as excessive and somewhat hostile, I do know that you have reason to feel this way and I respect that.

I appreciate that, and thank you. I do get hostile, particularly in the face of egregious sexism; I admit that my combativeness can be a fatal flaw, but I simply can't help it when someone is being really, horribly sexist (or racist, homophobic, etc.).

Yes, bitch and cunt and pussy are generally not ever seen as positive in any way. But I've got guy friends that would absolutely LOVE to be called girly, and I've got girl friends that would LOATHE being called manly.

Those are individuals, though, and we're not talking about things on the individual level. I'd hate to be called manly, too. But culturally and societally speaking, being considered or called things that mean "like a man" are positive, while being considered or called things that mean "like a woman" are intensely negative. The prevalence of insults like those listed above are proof of this. The vast majority of common gendered insults are female-oriented. The most severe are female-oriented, as well.

And generally the male equivalent does not carry the same weight, you're right. But that still doesn't make it okay.

Okay? I don't remember saying that gendered insults were ever okay. I do tend to care less about male-oriented insults, though, simply because a) there aren't many of them and b) they are so far lacking in severity that they're hardly worth my time. I police my own language to avoid slurs against women because they're offensive and sexist. However, slurs against men are not sexist (because again, you cannot be sexist against a man), so I don't feel the need to police my language the same way. (Though I do tend to use "jerk" or "jackass" a lot more often than I use "dick"... which is the only male-oriented insult I can actually think of right now. Which is kind of telling, isn't it?)

Misogyny started somewhere. It hasn't always been a problem.

Actually, yeah, it has always been a problem. The freaking Bible is one of the most sexist pieces of literature out there. Misogyny has been a problem more or less throughout recorded history. How do you honestly not know this? I want to know, because seriously, your teachers in high school did not do their jobs. For how many centuries were women denied the right to even hold a job? To be anything but mothers and homemakers? To be anything but a mother, period? To vote? (Protip: Women got the right to vote in 1920. Before that, only white men could vote. Think about that when you say things like "misogyny hasn't always been a problem".) Words and phrases denigrating women or using a comparison to women as an insult have existed for even longer -- I remember an insulting scrawl found in some ancient Greek ruins claiming so-and-so was "weak like a woman", which iirc predated the Roman empire.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

And while misandry is mostly a non-issue (though again, I feel that it does exist, though it is unquestionably barely a fraction of the problem that misogyny is), treating men like dirt just because there's no history to amplify the effect will, in fact, be the foundation that it currently lacks in being an act of sexism, by your definition.

If you are seriously implying that what you even admit is an insignificant (in my opinion, nonexistent) amount of "misandry" will lead to men being treated like women have historically, then you're just a raving idiot. Because seriously, men are never going to be treated like women are. There is no cultural, societal or historical basis for it. It's bullshit. Any and all "sexism against men" in our modern society is simply a reflection of sexism against women -- that is, men in nursing are denigrated not because they're men, but because they're taking a job traditionally taken by women -- meaning, keep up!, that they're being "like a woman," which is what they're denigrated for. And on and on.

If by "misandry" you mean "individual women saying they hate men" or something, you should really consider that a lot of women have really good reasons to hate and/or distrust men. Women who have been raped, stalked, or otherwise hurt or harassed by men often feel that way. And that is PERFECTLY VALID, especially considering rape culture, "dudebro" culture, and so on that condone and encourage that kind of behavior in men.

How about when people get up and point out when someone's behavior is excessive and hurtful? Should it necessarily matter that someone is a feminist if their words are hurtful? Should it matter if the person being insulted is male?

They should say it that way, then. They should say it without using sexist slurs. Imagine that -- a man telling a woman they're being hurtful without resorting to calling her a "bitch" or a "feminazi" or a "man-hater"! Or even without calling her "ugly"! I know, it's hard to believe; so many men are so quick to jump on the stereotype train and think of anyone who disagrees with them as "evil bitch feminazis."

And really, it depends on what you mean about "hurtful words." If you mean "feminists calling out douchebag misogynists," then I don't consider those words hurtful. I consider those words necessary. If you mean "they dared to insult him after he pulled out misogynistic slurs and degrading words/phrases towards women," then you're barking up the wrong fucking tree, cos after someone proves themselves a misogynistic jackass, I find absolutely no reason to be polite or tactful with them. If you hurl misogynistic slurs at me, I no longer have any requirement to "play nice" and refrain from insulting you.

(As an aside, gotta love the double standard here that it's totally okay for the man in this discussion to throw around sexist language, calling people "bitches" and "feminazis" and "ugly" and all kinds of other things, but the women in this discussion, according to you, are being "excessive and hurtful" when they respond to him and call him on being a misogynistic asshole. More practical examples of sexism, right here, in the expectation that no matter what a man says, women should always be polite and demure and "nice." Gag.)

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

But it does bother me when some people - not you, from my limited view here, but some people - use causes such as feminism to act however they want and disregard the consequences because their demographic has been mistreated in the past.

Please, point me to an example of this in this discussion, because I haven't seen any of that. I've seen people getting rightfully enraged by a sexist asshole who continued being a sexist asshole and insulting and throwing slurs at women throughout the conversation, and responding with that rage. None of them were "using feminism as an excuse." I don't know what the fuck you're even talking about. I have tried to be polite here, but this is just bullshit. This is just you talking about something that did not happen, making shit up, to discredit the valid feelings and opinions of the feminists in this thread who spoke against davidshephard.

It bothers me when the name of equality is used to torment and attack perfectly nice people

Someone who uses misogynistic language and slurs against actual women is not in any case ever a "perfectly nice person". That's bullshit. Seriously, you're making this guy out to be a fucking saint -- is it that hard to say "the feminists were right, he was being sexist and an asshole"? I mean, are you that invested in discrediting feminists and women in favor of a man who called women "bitches," attempted to discredit their valid feelings and responses by playing it off as their just being "fat, ugly feminazis" and thus bitter, and compared women who are for equal rights to motherfucking Nazis? Because this is all bullshit. NO ONE HERE has attacked "perfectly nice people" just because they're male. NO ONE HERE has kept anyone from defending their words and actions. You're seriously not even in the realm of reality anymore with this comment. The ONLY person who kept davidshephard from defending his own (bigoted, ugly, gross) remarks was himself, by deleting his account in a raging fit of butthurt.

It also bothers me that these conversations cannot, physically CANNOT, take place without the words "privilege" and "ignorance" showing up.

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK. Seriously, you can't have these kinds of conversations without these words coming up because THESE WORDS ARE IMPORTANT TO THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS. You can't discuss sexism without acknowledging and dealing with the privilege men have over women in society. And you sure as fuck can't educate a single person without acknowledging and dealing with said person's ignorance. And a lot of people -- yourself included, as I said above -- have been very, very ignorant in this thread. It's really gross. And people should be called on that ignorance. People should also be called on their privilege when they're flaunting it or trying to pretend it doesn't exist. It's not just bullshit and they're not just meaningless words -- these are important concepts. Important words.

(Oh my god I just exceeded the max character limit twice. I JUST HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS. And I think I'm out of Hawkeye icons, so have some Pepper. Moar badass women for all.)

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

And if I may be so bold, if you're right and you have no question in your mind that what you are saying/doing is right, then why are you so reluctant to sign your name to your comments?

do you know where you are


you're in an anonymous secrets community

Re: Are there any men watching?

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Well obvs if you make a point while anon you're automatically wrong. Automatically. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I think they just want me to let them stalk my profile info for wankbait or something, lol.

Re: Are there any men watching?

[(Anonymous)]

Taking a "stance of neutrality" and carefully avoiding addressing any part of an actual conversation, when someone is saying misogynistic things and being very offensive is what they're referring to with the "impressing guys" thing. If you've never heard of women acting in a sexist way or aligning themselves with sexist men so they can impress them by showing how "different" they are from those "ugly feminists," well, you're a lucky woman. And staying silent on the issue and nitpicking people who fail to contribute to the conversation adequately enough for your taste, you're aligning yourself with the misogynist -- you certainly don't seem to be calling him out.