fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1837 ]

[ SECRET POST #1837 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1837 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02. [broken link]

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03.

[Robin Of Sherwood/Michael Praed]

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04.

[Glee]

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05.

[We Got Married - Ga In (Brown Eyed Girls)/Jo Kwon (2AM)]

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06.

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07.

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08.

[Buzz Lightyear of Star Command]

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09. http://i.imgur.com/8DbqS.png
[linked for nudity/kind of porny]

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10.

[Josh Groban and Andrea Bocelli]

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11.

[Beast Wars, Megatron]

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12.

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13.

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14.

[Magic Mike]

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15.

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16. [repeat]

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17.

[Harry Potter & Little House on the Prairie]

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18.

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19.

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20.

[X-Men: First Class]

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21.

[Death Note]

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22.

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23.

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24.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

25. [SPOILERS for something, OP did not specify]

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26. [SPOILERS for Vampire Hunter D]

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27. [SPOILERS for Christmas Doctor Who and New Year's Sherlock]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

28. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Loveless]

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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse]

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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, animal cruelty]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #262.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So only genocide qualifies as a potentially offensive topic? I'm not suggesting that being offended by bullshit the fandom has done in relation to Nazis is wrong at all, but it is a bit silly to give out a free pass to be an idiot about other atrocities that have occurred throughout history. The way some people act like only Nazi Germany's WWII atrocities are still a sensitive subject that should be treated with caution is ridiculous. There are just as many people who are still alive today that were directly affected by Soviet Russia's war crimes, but you don't see anyone getting up in arms over a Soviet Russia cosplayer being offensive, or all of the horrible fics that trivialize the Red Army's actions into "lol Russia raped Prussia and isn't this smutty rapefic about it hot?".

And while war is certainly horrible, think about what was happening to Britain at that time. Germany was taking over all of Europe and Africa and they were bombing the shit out of Britain at the time. What course of action would you have taken as a nation at that time?

...Uh. re; British Empire I'm not even talking about during WWII. I'm talking about colonization primarily here. Hetalia is about world history from ancient civilization all the way up to modern day. The fandom's bullshit isn't all WWII-related either.

Oh and also

Soviet Russia's war crimes

Which is why I said "two of those countries committed genocide"
Guess which other country I was referring to

You aren't even listening to what I'm saying. Short version:

It's ridiculous how people both in and outside of Hetalia fandom are so quick to jump on anything potentially offensive relating to Nazis but don't even think twice about something equally offensive relating to the atrocities or general dark history of other countries besides Germany. IMO any offensive bullshit like that should be called out, not just if it relates to Nazis. Tons of Soviet Russia stuff that's similar and equally offensive slips under the radar.

Any questions?

THIS, OH MY GOD. Seriously, I've looked over the entire thread and you are one of only two people I agree with completely.

Thank you, anon. I'm probably not entirely interpreting the secret correctly since it went off on a weird tangent, but just. It's something that's bugged me about this fandom for a while now.

You're not interpreting the secret correctly AT ALL. The secret is about how Soviet Russia did just as many horrible things as Nazi Germany did (I can buy that) BUT THEN it throws in this shit at the end about how "oh, the US and UK were just a horrible in WWII as well". LOLNO OP

Which is why I stated initially that I might not be interpreting the secret entirely correctly but put in my opinion on what I did gather from it?

No, your interpretation of the secret is accurate.

Childing, as she is want to do, has failed some fairly basic reading comprehension, and then got super het up about some imagined argument.

Well I do think I'm missing something since this secret stops making sense once OP brings in the Dresden firebombings, but. Yeah. More or less typical

childings being a dick.

NAYRT

Agreed. She just about makes being a dense-as-fuck asshole on the internet into an art form.

God, you're dense.

I agree with you about Soviet Russia. That's why, in response to the actual secret (I have no idea why you are going off on a tangent about European history from time immemorial and how all countries have done horrible things, no shit) I was making the point that only two of the countries mentioned here committed genocide. Those two countries are:

1. Nazi Germany
2. Soviet Russia

At first I thought, maybe English just isn't your first language so you couldn't cognitively deduce that by saying "two countries" I was talking about Germany and Russia, but now, I really just don't know what you were thinking

Yes, I agree with OP that wearing Soviet symbols is just as bad as the Nazi shit. That is not the point I was trying to make.

THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE was that it's ridiculous to compare what Britain did in WWII (Hetalia isn't only about WWII but this secret is specially about WWII, OP even specified "1940s US/UK" in the secret) to what the Soviets or the Nazis did. A country pushed into a corner by Axis aggression that was getting the everloving shit bombed out of it might be a little justified in dropping bombs on the aggressor nation. Unless you're so extreme that you don't think nations have the right to defend themselves from annihilation.

Anyway, HOPE THIS SPELLS IT OUT FOR YOU since I forgot I have to be completely literal and long-winded on F!S for anyone to understand me

I was making the point that only two of the countries mentioned here committed genocide.

That should read "committed genocide in WWII". I can't edit my comments and I'm trying to be as picky about my words here as possible to avoid MISUNDERSTANDING WHICH IS APPARENTLY RAMPANT in this thread

Nope, but you're a jackass. Of course you have to be clear about what your point is in a conversation. That's common sense. Conversation over.

I'm pretty sure if anyone makes anything to represent the Soviet Union's crimes, people will protest. And, to be honest, the British/French/Belgian/Portuguese/Spanish Empire actions are on a different level than what the Nazis did. They were terrible things, of course, and those countries will always have them in their conscience but there's a reason why the Third Reich crimes are regarded as so completely different. It's hard to explain.

Uh. The things the Soviet Union did were just as bad and if you honestly think they aren't, you should probably go read up on them. Japan's, too. And uh. I bring up the Soviet Union specifically because I already have seen quite a few offensive as all fuck fanworks about it and no one seems to care. So yeah no. This fandom gets offensive with all sorts of different things, but only things related to Nazis or cases of "too soon" get substantial backlash and it's gross.

I was talking about the cosplay.

There's something different about the Reich's crimes. It may be that it's a huge blow on the face of Western's conscience, or the scientific aspect of the genocide, or how they shatter our illusion of a rational, humane civilisation. It maybe the fact that it took so long to reveal Stalin's crime and that the camps were better known. Or maybe a self-centred way to understand the world that makes things done by "one of us", Germany in this case, harder to accept. It maybe the philosophical repercussions of it ("to write lyric poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric"). It maybe that the intellectuals and artists expelled from Germany and Austria are much closer to us than the ones that suffered the Soviet rule. But there's something that makes the Nazis stand out as different than the Soviets in our minds. And I don't think it's prejudice against Germany... after all, the Russians were held in low-esteem even before 1917.

Even so, the famous speech on Stalin's crimes had a tremendous impact in European and American (the continent) intellectuality and was a pivotal point in the left's turn to China.

The reasons why Japan's crimes are not as present in our memories and collective identities have to do with sheer distance, both geographical and cultural.

That doesn't make it right, but there are reasons why people have different takes on these matters. And this is true all across the Western world, not only in America.

I'm sure it's happened in cosplay too. Tons of Russias think it's okay to "molest" people because "hurrhurr rapetruck Soviet Russia", for instance. I'm sure people have probably taken it a step further with the Soviet implications before. We just haven't heard about it because the event didn't blow up online later like the Anime Boston sieg heil did.

...Um. So the crux of your argument is "because the Nazis made such an impact on Western, specifically American culture, what they did is worse than what any other country ever did"? That is so backwards. No. What the Nazis did is not worse than any other genocide committed. The fact that Western culture has latched onto it, while the Soviets covered up their crimes for so long, Japan is far away, etc does not make those atrocities any less tragic, and to say so is just plain disrespectful to all of the people who lost their lives in those tragedies, or those who lost family, friends, etc. What the Nazis did at its core is not worse than other genocides. All genocide is a horrible thing, playing the "which is worse" game is fucking ridiculous and pretty damn insulting tbh.

Also the America-centrism of your argument is kind of disgusting.

If we haven't heard of it is hard to say anything, right?

I never talk about grades of moral importance or something being better or worse. There's no scale of what's more tragic and there's no need for it. Murder is wrong, no matter what. I talked about why some crimes make a greater impact in our minds that other. And the fact that Nazi crimes are more fresh in our conscience is a fact, so I think it's interesting to understand why.

I could argue that not all mass killings or genocides induce the same repulsion than the Nazi's crimes do (there's a mix of coldness and sheer barbarism in it that makes it impossible to ignore or to analyse without having a moral response) but that's subjective and I'm sure it's tied with its symbolic place in our culture.

Lastly, I am not American. I said Western world, which is not the same than American. Not a drop of American blood in me, if you must know and only a passing interest in American history, FWIW.

Um. You've been trying to tell me this whole time that what the Nazis did was worse, so it's okay that people jump on Hetalia fans being insensitive about Nazis but not so much about other similar happenings. That is a moral judgment.

"I could argue that not all mass killings or genocides induce the same repulsion than the Nazi's crimes do (there's a mix of coldness and sheer barbarism in it that makes it impossible to ignore or to analyse without having a moral response) but that's subjective and I'm sure it's tied with its symbolic place in our culture. "

Yeah, you could. And I'd think you're being utterly gross for it. Because I'm sorry, but what sort of genocide or mass killing doesn't involve coldness and sheer barbarism? These are all cases of horrifically high numbers of people being slaughtered for terrible reasons.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you even know any history behind any genocide besides the Holocaust? Because you sure as fuck don't sound like you do.

Just chiming in agreement, here. Genocide is genocide is genocide. It's the kind of Olympics that nobody should ever want to declare a winner for.

Also, throwing in Democratic Kampuchea only because I'm a bit saddened at not seeing it mentioned yet.

Exactly. Just. It's all equally horrific that things like this can happen IMO, and trying to decide which is "worse" is unnecessary and kind of insulting.

Um. You've been trying to tell me this whole time that what the Nazis did was worse,

No. I said it's perceived as worse by many, many people and had a different cultural impact. You know this and that annoys you. I know this and try to know why because I think it's interesting.

so it's okay that people jump on Hetalia fans being insensitive about Nazis but not so much about other similar happenings. That is a moral judgement

I think it's okay for people to jump on anyone who's insensitive about tragedies. I also try to understand why some tragedies are featured more prominently than others. No moral judgement - or yes, there's, as I feel a deep repulsion for the Nazi ideology and for the Soviet Union, which is tied with my own political beliefs; but better than moral outcries are attempts to analyse things.

Yeah, you could. And I'd think you're being utterly gross for it.

No all crimes make people feel the same way. People who had a history with fascism (and Nazism is a form of it) will probably be more sensitive to its crimes than somebody who has no contact whatsoever. It's human nature. I'm more sensitive about what the last dictatorship did in my country than you or any non-Argentinian would be, because it's closer to me. While we intellectually understand that all murders are wrong and condemn them morally, not all of them generate the same visceral reaction, due to personal history.

Because I'm sorry, but what sort of genocide or mass killing doesn't involve coldness and sheer barbarism? These are all cases of horrifically high numbers of people being slaughtered for terrible reasons.

First of all, mass killing is not the same than genocide.

There are numerous cases that ended up in mass killings that do not have the sheer scientific approach of the Final Solution. The Spanish colonisation of America is an example: many consider it a genocide but it doesn't have the same characteristics of the Third Reich. The Harrying of the North, another event considered genocide by many lack the business-like feeling of the Third Reich. The Terror (though it's a mass killing case, not genocide), my own country's experience... all of them are different. All of them are barbaric but not stone cold.

Again, that doesn't mean anything on moral matters. But the crimes of Nazi Germany and the ones committed by the Soviet Union are studied differently because they have different ideological basis and were done in different ways. And the study of those differences is a pretty interesting thing, imho.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you even know any history behind any genocide besides the Holocaust? Because you sure as fuck don't sound like you do.

Yes, I do. I'm not talking about the actual events but about how people perceive them and why some may find one thing more offensive than the other. I think it's interesting to know why, in front of events that are roughly the same, we react differently: how much of it is temperamental and how much of it is culture-based? Does time change our reaction? Does knowing the victims have anything to do? Have cultural ties with the victims or the perpetrators affect our perception? How does media plays in this?

Now, I have a question for you: you are obviously a Germanophile (like I am an Anglophile) and you are aware of people dismissing Soviet crimes and putting emphasis on Nazi ones. Why do you think it's this way? I think it's related to the symbolic place Germany has in the European matrix but I'm curious on your take as you have obviously put a lot of thought on this.

You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

"No all crimes make people feel the same way. People who had a history with fascism (and Nazism is a form of it) will probably be more sensitive to its crimes than somebody who has no contact whatsoever. It's human nature. I'm more sensitive about what the last dictatorship did in my country than you or any non-Argentinian would be, because it's closer to me. While we intellectually understand that all murders are wrong and condemn them morally, not all of them generate the same visceral reaction, due to personal history."

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't. It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day. When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

"First of all, mass killing is not the same than genocide. "

When did I say they were? idk if you're trying to insult my intelligence here or what, but my point is that they are both horrible things. Not that they're synonyms. And you're the one who brought up mass killings in the first place. And uh. They are all stone cold. Because it takes a total inhuman approach to be willing to kill people on such a scale. Even just murdering one person is something that is very hard to do without some level of detachment from humanity.

"Yes, I do. I'm not talking about the actual events but about how people perceive them and why some may find one thing more offensive than the other. I think it's interesting to know why, in front of events that are roughly the same, we react differently: how much of it is temperamental and how much of it is culture-based? Does time change our reaction? Does knowing the victims have anything to do? Have cultural ties with the victims or the perpetrators affect our perception? How does media plays in this?"

Yes, this is all fascinating, but it's not at all what you were saying in your initial comment. You flat out claimed Nazis are the worst ever. Which is utter bullshit.

You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.

True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.

It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.

That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.

When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.

I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?

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You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit. 

And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.

True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.

It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.

That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.

When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.

I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?

<i<When did I say they were? idk if you're trying to insult my intelligence here or what, but my point is that they are both horrible things. Not that they're synonyms. 

I must have misread you, then.

And you're the one who brought up mass killings in the first place. 

Because there tends to be a debate about the line between genocide and mass killing.

And uh. They are all stone cold. Because it takes a total inhuman approach to be willing to kill people on such a scale. Even just murdering one person is something that is very hard to do without some level of detachment from humanity. 

I disagree. Many horrid, massive crimes are committed for entirely non-rational reasons. Or better yet, without much of an elaborated rationale behind them. Not every genocide has the complex legal and "scientific" structure the Nazis created.

My country as an example: the Army kidnapped, tortured and murdered people with a certain method but fuelled by anti-communist paranoia. It was no-where near the level of thought the Nazis put on it. The Middle Ages saw plentiful of mass killings of the Jewish population in the context of religious hysteria. The destruction of native peoples in South America was more of a blind lashing filled with cruelty and horror than a well-thought plan to exterminate a group of people that was legally equal to the Spanish conquerors. The Crusades are a good example of mass killings done without any planning, too.

Not all murderers are devoid of humanity: not all of them are psychopaths/sociopaths.

Yes, this is all fascinating, but it's not at all what you were saying in your initial comment. You flat out claimed Nazis are the worst ever. Which is utter bullshit. 

I said that they are in a different level and are regarded so.

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