[ SECRET POST #1843 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1843 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 50 secrets from Secret Submission Post #263.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

This! I am so tired of people shipping two men who have a close relationship, why can't they just be friends? Same goes to most close friendship, why do it have to be shiped?

I do read Sherlock/John fics though, but really I don't ship them in the show, just find the fics facinating, same with Sherlock/any other pairing including 3 and 4-somes, only fandom where I don't really care about any ships at all...

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Men are "just friends" in ABSOLUTELY EVERY TELEVISION SHOW EVER. EVER. I can't think of a single show other than, idk, Queer As Folk where the main male character isn't ~just friends with every other male protagonist. JFC. PLEASE tell me where these shows are hiding where the men are more than friends!

And why is it not okay for men to be more than just friends?

And to the thread OC, what the fuck about becoming a couple "takes away" from a friendship? Excuse me? I'd love to hear the explanation on this, since I'm currently dating and completely in love with the girl who has been my best friend for years. Please, explain how my loving her and being in a relationship with her takes away from our friendship.

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

I probably was not clear in my comment, I would not object to more gay canon pairings, I would like that quite a bit, it is all the slashing that gets to me, but then again I don't have that many pairings I ship that aren't canon, so I might be a bit biased.

Torchwood had quite a bit of gayness, but that is not enough, in a perfect world there would be more gay characters and different ethnicity and more female leading roles, and maybe one day we will.


And I wish you and your girlfriend all the happiness in the world!

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Your comment is very supportive of a really gross, slightly homophobic comment about how John and Sherlock shouldn't become a canon pairing, though. You should really make it more clear if you don't intend to support what they say, because it sure did sound like you do. And there is something a bit very... off about the argument that there's something wrong with fandom shipping two men together -- "why can't they just be friends?" Maybe because they already are in the fandom proper. Maybe because there's virtually no representation for homosexual characters in popular fiction. Any number of reasons. I'd like it very much if anyone who says those kinds of things could look at why they think it's a horrible thing, especially considering how male friendship is shown everywhere, while gay male relationships are so severely underrepresented.

I really wish shows would include more gay and lesbian characters-- and of course, more women and minority characters as well. It infuriates me when I see a new show come out with an all-white, mostly male, all-straight cast. Ugh. It's one part of why I would love it so much if Sherlock went that route -- though of course not the only reason, lol.

Thank you very much! :) I hope you got that that part of my comment was directed at the OC of the thread, not you.

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

I will try to explain how I feel when it comes to shipping bff relationships (both gay and straight) is that for me yes friendship can turn into more, but why do every hug or touch or shared look have to mean that they want to see each other naked? I don't want to see my best friend naked no matter how many times I hug her or tell her I love her. I know that it is not a popular fandom opinion and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut, but my opinion is worth just as much as anyone elses.

So me not wanting Sherlock and John to become canon is not me being homophobic it is just my opinion nor is wanting most of my bff relationship on tv to stay just that, bffs. I ship both slash and straight relationships, I have both straight and gay friends, just like I have friends of both gender and different ethnicity, the thing is though that I don't want to see people making out if the couple is gay or not is irrelevant, public displays of affection makes me uncomfortable, but that has to make me homophobic right?

And for the record I did not see comment as you put it "gross, slightly homophobic", I just saw it as something I agreed on, but you see it differently and if I offended you with that I am sorry.

I got that, still wont stop me from being nice...

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I will try to explain how I feel when it comes to shipping bff relationships (both gay and straight) is that for me yes friendship can turn into more, but why do every hug or touch or shared look have to mean that they want to see each other naked?

The thing is most people don't interpret EVERY friendship in their fandoms this way. They may ship BFF ships X/Y, A/B, and C/D, but most people also like L&M, U&V, and R&S as just friends. Yes, any pair who are BFFs on a popular fandom show will probably have some shippers, but that's also true of any pair who are enemies, any pair who are frenemies, and often any pair who happens to appear on the screen together at some point (and sometimes not even that).

But just because an individual ships a certain Friend/Friend ship (or even a number of them) doesn't mean they think all friendships are like that (esp. not IRL). It just means they like those characters together in a romantic and/or sexy way, too, for whatever reason.

-- Ships a lot of friendships, but also really doesn't ship a lot of other friendships, based on random factors such as specific dynamic, actor chemistry, a possibly the phase of the moon when I first consume the story

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

To be honest I don't really care about what anyone ships for the most part, even if some ships are just wrong at least from my point of view.

What annoys me is that if I say I don't ship, especially when it is male bff's this makes me homophobic, instead of just the reality that is that I just don't see them as more than friends.

To be completely honest I do ship some friendships too, well at least one Castle/Beckett, and I guess that one don't really count?

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. You explained it better than me. :)

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

I did?

(If so that is a first in my life ever... And thank you should be said.)

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Already sent this to you, but posting here so others can see my argument, etc.

I don't think you're homophobic. Your comments were... irritating, I want to say, not because you don't ship what I ship, but the way you phrased your reasoning was really kind of... I don't know, it got under my skin in a big way. "Why can't they be friends?" "Why do they have to hook up?" etc. is really galling when in the vast, vast majority of fandoms, the guys who are super-close friends? Will never hook up, no matter how much chemistry they have, how many hugs they share, or how close they are. Here I'm thinking of shows like Psych, Criminal Minds, Being Human... the list goes on and on of shows with pairs of guys who are bffs but will never in a million years hook up. The idea that the potential for one pair of bffs in one show to hook up means we should all cry about how "guys aren't allowed to be bffs" is galling. It's honestly infuriating, when I can point to easily a dozen "bromances" that would never in a million years become canon, where the guys are definitely bffs and love each other but will and would never hook up, but people are crying and whinging because one "bromance" on TV has the potential to actually become a romance.

And given the number of "bromances" on TV - bffs who would never hook up, ever - the crying about how Sherlock and John hooking up would mean "no men can ever just be bffs!" just comes off as homophobic. It comes off as frankly ridiculous, someone looking for a scapegoat reason why they shouldn't have Sherlock and John get into a relationship. Simply put, it's a bullshit reason to object to the pairing.

There's also the fact that, as another comment there did outright and your argument did implicitly, saying things like that makes it seem like there's something wrong with two bffs hooking up. Like it, as the original commenter so grossly said, "takes away from their friendship" and somehow makes it lesser, tawdry, bad. As someone who, as I said in the thread, is in love with and dating her best friend, this idea is deeply offensive to me, this.. this implication that by dating my bff-now-girlfriend I've somehow made our friendship less valid, that there's something wrong with it. That somehow being in a relationship is a step DOWN from being a best friend, rather than a step up or merely a step to the side.

I understand you didn't mean to imply a lot of this, but words mean things, and agreements also mean things - when you agreed with the poster above you unconditionally, you also agreed to their saying that bffs getting in a relationship "takes away from their friendship." You agreed that somehow one couple in one show getting together means "men aren't capable of interacting on a deeper level without romance being involved," which is blatant bullshit no matter how you slice it.

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

I could reply with something long and defending or whatever, but frankly I don't think we will get anywhere, mostly because for the most part we are not that far away when it comes to opinion, even if it might seem like I am really against Sherlock/John becoming canon, I am not, at least not if it is done well, I usually am quite okay with whatever the canon is in most of my shows.

The reason to why I get so annoyed and overreact is because mostly everywhere one looks people ship bbf's and for the most part that is not what I see. And if anyone dare to speak up you are somehow wrong for not thinking it could work romantically...

And I would never tell you that your RL relationship was any less worth because it started out as a friendship, hell both of "real" relationship started out as friendships one of them was my best friend for years before we got any further, and personally for me that ruined the friendship and maybe even my belief that bbf's can do romance, because you loose so much more if/when you break up, and again this is my personal opinion, I don't go around judging people for the most part.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, calm down. It's perfectly okay for men to be more than friends.

I'm not saying you can't be in a relationship with your best friend. I'm saying that in the case of these particular characters, I don't think their love has to be romantic to be powerful. If they turned them into a couple I feel it would take away the point of their relationship. Again, I'm thinking more along the lines of Frodo and Sam than just any fictional male BFFs. I'm sorry if I'm not explaining myself well. It's late and I'm tired.

[(Anonymous)]

BTW I've shipped slash pairings before and completely agree there should be more gay relationships on television. I just don't think John and Sherlock are the right characters to do that with.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

If they turned them into a couple I feel it would take away the point of their relationship.

Please explain how and why.

[(Anonymous)]

First off, I don't think Sherlock should be in a romantic relationship with anyone, man or woman. Like the Doctor, I don't believe he's capable of it. He's married to his job.

He and John obviously love and depend on each other, more than anyone else, but to me they're relationship is like that of two brothers. If they were a couple it would be a different dynamic and imo out of character for Sherlock.

If you see them as a couple then great, but I think it's better left as something to interpret than made canon and that doesn't make me homophobic.

[(Anonymous)]

their*

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Your comment said, literally, that hooking them up would imply that men can't be "just friends," ergo you believe that having a SINGLE canon gay pairing in one single show would imply to the world that no men can ever be just friends. That's ridiculously homophobic and, you know, really fucking stupid.

You said that making their relationship canon would "take away" from their friendship. I said, I got in a relationship with my best friend, does that mean it "took away" from our friendship? What, exactly, does a romantic relationship "take away" from a friendship?

And what is the "point" of their relationship that would be taken away if they became a couple? Please tell me, I'm dying to know.

You haven't explained anything. All you've done is make yourself look like a homophobe who doesn't like the idea of two men hooking up on your television.

[(Anonymous)]

I am not a homophobe, and I really don't appreciate you insulting me like that. You know nothing about me. I have trouble putting my thoughts into words, so I'm sorry if I'm not answering your question.

I admit that post was poorly worded. What I meant was that some people seem to view any affection or special bond between best friends, (whether it's two men, two women or a man and a woman), as some sort of proof that they secretly want to sleep with each other, and there can be no other explanation. The reason I referred primarily to the two men scenario is because from my experience it's more common than the two women scenario. As another example, I feel the same way about Harry and Hermione. Their friendship is one of my favourite things about Harry Potter, and I wouldn't want that to be changed. Of course friends can develop feelings for each other but that isn't always the case. I guess it's not so much the idea itself that bothers me as the people who shove it down your throat that these two characters are DEFINITELY in love with each other and if you feel differently you're an idiot or a homophobe.

To me putting Sherlock in a romantic relationship with John is like putting The Doctor in a romantic relationship with one of his companions. I just don't agree with it.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I guess it's not so much the idea itself that bothers me as the people who shove it down your throat that these two characters are DEFINITELY in love with each other and if you feel differently you're an idiot or a homophobe.

As I said in a thread above, people who do this are rude. The problem was that your original comment was also very rude, as it implied people who ship friendships are Doing It Wrong, and even that we don't understand friendship. Fighting fire with fire doesn't normally work :)

In the end, it comes down to a matter of interpretation/taste. Some people see S/J as a friendship; others see it as a friendship which has the potential to turn into romance (and they would like that). Neither side is WRONG, it's just a different read on the relationship. Hell, same with Doctor/companion -- you might not like it, but other people DO like Doctor/Companion ships (and in the case of Eleven/River, and Rose/Ten, they have a lot of canon support, honestly).

And of course, different interpretations of relationships is hardly something that just comes up in friend-based ships. People read canon relationships differently all the time and can end up calling people all sorts of nasty things over it (being a Spuffy shipper is TONS of fun, let me tell you).

It's normally better not to attack people or draw broad inferences about their general understand of relationships (whether that be calling them homophobic or saying their ship implies men aren't capable of deep platonic relationships) based on a single ship they do or don't like.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry if it came across as rude as that wasn't my intention. My post wasn't directed at people who ship Sherlock/John or friendships in general. I completely understand why people enjoy these ships and respect their opinions.

My only issue is with people who perceive my opinion and the opinion of the writers as being wrong and somehow homophobic because we believe it's better left as something to interpret rather than made canon. I really hope I'm making sense here. =/

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, insulting someone like that based on how you interpreted their comment is really fucking stupid. I know several gay men who don't want Sherlock/John to be canon. Are they homophobic too?

[(Anonymous)]

...Because they can?

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

That is true dear anon, that is true, freedom of speech and everything.

[finmagik.livejournal.com]

Oh, I fear for you dearest. I got eaten for an opinion like this. I came around to understand Sherlock/John but I still don't ship it and now I don't mean the really terrible things I said. but I had to leave.

[making-excuses.livejournal.com]

I will be okay and I feel sorry for you!