[ SECRET POST #1851 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1851 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Coronation Street]


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03.


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04.


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05.


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06.
[The Fly]


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07.
[Black Lagoon]


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08.


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09.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]










10. [SPOILERS for Catherine]



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11. [SPOILERS for the Vampire Diaries]

[Vampire Diaries and Kyle XY]


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12. [SPOILERS for Huntress Mini]



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13. [SPOILERS for Mawaru Penguindrum]



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14. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]



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15. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]



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16. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]



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17. [SPOILERS for Sherlock]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














18. [TRIGGER WARNING for gore/death]
[SPOILERS for Sherlock]



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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Kannazuki No Miko]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #264.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[visp.livejournal.com]

....

Okay, so I haven't seen the anime, but it's sounding an awful lot like you just said "but she raped her because she loved her so much - which makes it better." I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here, but the whole "rape is love" trope is really not okay, and makes it worse.

[wolfie.livejournal.com]

First off, I said it was not my opinion.

I also said it's not the rape that makes it "romantic", nor that this makes the "rape any better". Please read.

[jathis.livejournal.com]

Dude, that is exactly what you said.

[(Anonymous)]

Now, first and foremost, I'm not defending the rape scene, nor the act itself. RAPE IS INCREDIBLY WRONG NO MATTER HOW IT GOES DOWN.

That said, you do realize that the over-arcing "reason" for the rape is because of a deep-set never-ending love for her partner? As wrong as the scene/act itself was, that is (UNFORTUNATELY) why their relationship is considered one that is "quintessential" and "romantic".

Please note, my own personal opinions don't exactly align with this popular set of opinions, either. But I am saying I can see WHY people think this way. The above is merely an attempt to present their voice.

...not saying it's not short-sighted. Because it is. xD;;


Brought to you by Reading Comprehension Network Services.

[jathis.livejournal.com]

If her own personal views don't agree with it then she doesn't need to try and defend the fact that people view rape is okay in the first place. You can copy and paste all you want but she defended the idea of rape for love.

[(Anonymous)]

Now, first and foremost, I'm not defending the rape scene, nor the act itself. RAPE IS INCREDIBLY WRONG NO MATTER HOW IT GOES DOWN.

That said, you do realize that the over-arcing "reason" for the rape is because of a deep-set never-ending love for her partner? As wrong as the scene/act itself was, that is (UNFORTUNATELY) why their relationship is considered one that is "quintessential" and "romantic".

Please note, my own personal opinions don't exactly align with this popular set of opinions, either. But I am saying I can see WHY people think this way. The above is merely an attempt to present their voice.

...not saying it's not short-sighted. Because it is. xD;;

Seems to me that they were only commenting on the fandom, trying to figure out why the fandom would/might think that. Lot's of people do it, wonder why people think they way that they do.

Please to be learning reading comprehension.

[(Anonymous)]

+1. Sounded like those bolded statements were added in order to not look like a disgusting shithead, though clearly it didn't work.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, wolfie.

[lilweirdomokyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, I may regret asking this, but who the heck is wolfie and why are they being brought up all the time in this conversation?

[visp.livejournal.com]

Adding a disclaimer to the beginning doesn't nullify saying the exact opposite thing in the middle. Not even if you follow it up with more evading at the end.

[(Anonymous)]

That's exactly what you said. Quit backpedaling.

[(Anonymous)]

Now, first and foremost, I'm not defending the rape scene, nor the act itself. RAPE IS INCREDIBLY WRONG NO MATTER HOW IT GOES DOWN.

That said, you do realize that the over-arcing "reason" for the rape is because of a deep-set never-ending love for her partner? As wrong as the scene/act itself was, that is (UNFORTUNATELY) why their relationship is considered one that is "quintessential" and "romantic".

Please note, my own personal opinions don't exactly align with this popular set of opinions, either. But I am saying I can see WHY people think this way. The above is merely an attempt to present their voice.

...not saying it's not short-sighted. Because it is. xD;;


Brought to you by Reading Comprehension Network Services.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, wolfie.

[visp.livejournal.com]

You said that the fact that she did it out of a "deep-set never-ending love" (which is bullshit, BTW, if you truly love someone YOU DON'T RAPE THEM) was why other people (totally not you, but you can totally see it from their point of view) found it romantic. You basically put out a theory "love" as being a justification or, at least, mitigation of rape.

[(Anonymous)]

First off, I'm not wolfie or anyone else who has commented in this thread; I just want to make that clear.  Call me "woodsman" instead.

I've read this whole thread, and I have to say, I think I understand what wolfie was trying to say, and why just about everyone misunderstood it.  Wolfie expected people to understand that she was not sharing her personal opinion of the show, but answering the question (rhetorically) asked by the original secret, "Why is this show considered to be THE quintessential yuri anime?"

It goes without saying that if you are going to explain the popularity of a work that has some highly repugnant elements in it, you will have to explain why the people who like that work and make it popular are not turned off by those repugnant elements.  Whether it's Little House on the Prairie, Gone With the Wind, The Talented Mr. Ripley, Arsenic and Old Lace, Death Wish, Twilight, KnM or any other work, there must be some reason why the people who like it can forgive the repugnant elements - writing off everyone who does like it as an evil barbarian is a popular strategy that lets the people who do it feel morally superior, but it's hardly realistic.

I've never seen KnM, but from everything I've read about it, I think the problem is that the people who are horrified that something so awful is allowed to exist may be reading it more literally than they are supposed to.  Now hold on for a second - do you remember those works I talked about in the last paragraph?  What, exactly, makes it acceptable to laugh at Arsenic and Old Lace?  Little old ladies who have gone mentally deranged and murdered a dozen innocent people in the pathetic delusion they are showing mercy to them - that's a horrifying prospect!  Who could laugh at such a horrible thing??  Well, countless audiences have, because it's considered culturally okay to say "It's just a comedy; I don't have to react with the horror that would be appropriate if I were taking these events literally and seriously."  To focus on the horror of the multiple murders of the premise is to misread the work, even though those murders are undeniably there.

What would happen if we had a similar cultural rule that said "What happens in a certain kind of love story should be correctly read as an expression of the intensity of the characters' feelings, not as approval for the form that expression takes"?  In other words, just as we don't take the crooner who says "I'll hold you in my arms forever, I'll never let you go" as expressing a frightening literal possessiveness but expressing a tender desire to be always with us, maybe the "correct" way to read Edward is not as the sort of creep who would repeatedly sneak into a girl's bedroom to watch her without her knowledge as she sleeps, but as a boy whose love for that girl is so great that just to see her is something for which he would gladly give up hours and hours of his time.  (Think how much that would mean to a Twi-mom whose husband has never given up a Saturday football game for her.)

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that every Twilight fan is actually an empowered Gloria Steinem who consciously thinks "Why, this depiction of a woman having sexual attentions forced upon her is perfectly fine, because it's only symbolic, you see!"  I don't think Stephenie Meyer ever thought, "Gee, maybe it'd be actually pretty creepy for Edward to pursue Bella like that."  But I think that the way people read texts is far more complicated than "If you read a work where horrifying act X occurs, and you don't angrily reject the work as horrible, you're an X-apologist, and if you even answer a question about why other people might be not angrily rejecting the work as horrible with anything other than 'they're X-apologists,' you're a horrible X-apologist."  People cheer for Charles Bronson taking vigilante justice into his own hands in Death Wish and it doesn't mean they approve of vigilante justice in the real world.

-- woodsman

[(Anonymous)]

So people who are horrified by the "rape is love" trope are just interrogating the rape from the wrong perspective?

Wolfie or not, you're a fucking douchebag.

[(Anonymous)]

No, that's a straw man argument. You seem to be stuck on the idea that there can be only one legitimate reaction to a problematic work, so that if you are horrified by it, all right-thinking people must be horrified by it and all people who are not horrified by it must be wrong-thinking douchebags. Go ahead and be horrified by it; refuse to ever see it; strenuously object to it; and even (if you feel like really doing something productive with your anger on the subject) write your own work of art deconstructing the trope you find offensive. But do you really think you're being constructive and making the world a better place when you say "You must be an awful person!" to someone merely because they enjoy a fictional work you don't? Or even more extreme, "You must be an awful person because you can see why someone might enjoy this work"?

-- woodsman

[(Anonymous)]

I think anyone who can justify liking or approving of the Rape Is Love trope as you and Wolfie have both done is mos def a fucking douchebag. It's rape apology, no matter what kind of fancy big words you dress it up in, and that is not okay.

Deal with it.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, you have a right to your opinion, but frankly the harder you insist that all right-thinking people must be as rabidly condemning of fictional rape as they are of real-life rape, and the more you insist that anyone who dares acknowledge that fiction is in fact fiction must be a "douchebag", the more I wonder how solid is your grasp of the difference between fiction and reality.

-- woodsman

[visp.livejournal.com]

TLDR: "Being a rape apologist is okay if you try and get intellectual about it!"

[(Anonymous)]

No shit. What the actual fuck is wrong with these people? Is it something in the water?

[(Anonymous)]

In what way is it "rape apologism" to acknowledge simply that people who enjoy a work that includes acts of rape might do so for reasons other than thinking rape in real life is acceptable? Is every person who saw and enjoyed The Talented Mr. Ripley a "murder apologist"? Is every person who doesn't automatically condemn anyone who enjoyed that movie a "murder apologist"? If not, why do you classify murder as less severe than rape, such that fictional murder is okay to enjoy but anyone who fails to revile fictional rape must be branded as evil?

I'd rather "try and get intellectual" about such questions rather than just assume that I must be on the right side of things because I feel so righteously angry -- even as I boast that I Didn't Read the point of view I'm claiming to have refuted. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

-- woodsman

[(Anonymous)]

Because ignoring the rape and finding the relationship romantic and perfect and desirable anyway is implying that rape is totally okay (or at the very least "not that bad") as long as it's done with "good" intentions. That's distilled rape apology right there.

Though if you're as male as your sig name implies, it's no fucking wonder you're this much of a dipshit.

[(Anonymous)]

Did you really intend all the implications of your last sentence? That the more "male" one is, the more one is automatically a dipshit?

As for your first paragraph, you are never going to be correctly describing the point of view I've been arguing until you start distinguishing between "rape in fiction" and "rape in reality." Until you grasp and deal with that distinction, you're not arguing against me, but against a straw man.

-- woodsman

[visp.livejournal.com]

Because underneath all your pseudo-intellectualism, you're trying to obscure the fact that what wolfie said wasn't at all about the anime being ok despite having rape in it. She was talking about how the main character raping her love interest could still be construed as romantic because she did it out of some sort of overarching love. TLDR also means "Here's a recap for the rest of you because the previous bit was too long and not really worth going into."