fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1907 ]

[ SECRET POST #1907 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1907 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Disney's Gargoyles]

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[X-Men: First Class]

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[keanu reeves]

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[keanu reeves]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

11. [SPOILERS for Death Note]

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12. [SPOILERS for Kuragehime]

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13. [SPOILERS for The Walking Dead]

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14. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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15. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]

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16. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]

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17. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

18. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]

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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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20. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Eyeeeah, I agree. It's so rare to get a heroine who has a specific, practical thing she wants to achieve (the only other one was Mulan), so while I understand that the lesson was not working so hard you forget your loved ones, it was poorly framed and came off as "get a man above all else!" If Tiana had been shown neglecting her mother or her best friend in her frenzy to get a restaurant, then yeah, it would have made sense, but frankly the movie didn't convince me she was working so hard it was detrimental to her. Maybe I need to rewatch, but what I mainly remember is being really annoyed that she resigned herself to life as a frog with Naveen without a single mention of, you know, her freaking mother who had no idea what had happened to her. It was just...yeah, no.

Snow White wanted a man. Cinderella wanted out of her miserable life. Aurora wanted a man. Ariel wanted to live on the human world. Belle was the most vague all of the girl's had ("adventure in the great wide somewhere"). Jasmine didn't want to be constrained by royal life, as with Pocahontas. Mulan wanted to save her dad and be herself. Rapunzel wanted to see the lanterns (and also experience the outside world.)

Almost all of them wanted something in particular. Tiana wanted a specific place, sure, but they all wanted something and knew what they wanted (with the maybe exception of Belle).

My apologies, I wasn't specific. There are very few heroines who had a specific goal that didn't require some dude or romance to achieve. Belle's way out of her provincial life was Adam, Ariel's motivation to become human was Eric, Rapunzel's way out of the tower was Flynn, Jasmine's window to adventure was Aladdin, Pocahontas was driven to action by Smith, Cinderella was saved from her family by what's-his-face. And the rest of them just wanted some dude, like you said. Mulan's relationship with Shang was irrelevant to her goals, he helped and was a friend, but he wasn't a key aspect of her actions or motivations. So Tiana prioritizing Naveen over such an awesome dream was dismaying for me. I wanted her adventure to lend her a solution to the problem of getting her restaurant, not land her a man (or make marrying the man the solution).

Ariel's motivation to become human was Eric

Erm, no. He was the catalyst if you really want to nail it down, but her motivation was always having a love of human culture, and her father not accepting it. It was more her running away to join the ~~circus~~ human world, Eric was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It was all about her and her dad.

Cinderella was saved from her family by what's-his-face

The fairy godmother? Jaq and Gus? Seriously they all did a lot more for Cinderela than Prince Charming.

I wanted her adventure to lend her a solution to the problem of getting her restaurant

Did you miss that it was Louis that helped her get her restaurant a lot more than Naveen?

Yes, I concede that, he was more the catalyst than the initial motivation, but Ariel's fate and ability to remain in the human world hinged solely on her relationship with him rather than on herself. That was a problem in the original story, but it certainly could have been rewritten by Disney. (And, I just realized, was replicated to an extent with PatF Tiana's life was ruined by Naveen, but that was okay, because she fell for him - while losing everything else. Sure, it all worked out in the end, but it troubled me that she spent the whole movie not fixing her problems, but solving his.)

The fairy godmother? Jaq and Gus? Seriously they all did a lot more for Cinderella than Prince Charming.

The purpose of that help was to get her to a ball where the prince was looking for a bride. The prince was the endgame, nobody was going through all that trouble because it was her lifelong dream to wear a pretty dress.

Did you miss that it was Louis that helped her get her restaurant a lot more than Naveen?

Ah, right, that's true, her adventure got her Louis. At that point it felt like it didn't matter, though, and it was treated like it didn't, by resolving Tiana's original problem so flippantly. Because she already had (romantic) love, the restaurant was merely a nice bonus. I really didn't like that message.

but Ariel's fate and ability to remain in the human world hinged solely on her relationship with him rather than on herself.

Well, yes, but that was kind of the point. Ursula would never have made a deal that she thought Ariel could fulfill. I always found it funny that even though it has two very strong female characters it fails the Bechdel test on purpose. Ariel repeatedly tries to focus on her family and how leaving would effect them, but Ursula keeps steering it back to Princey, trying to put blinders on her.

The purpose of that help was to get her to a ball where the prince was looking for a bride. The prince was the endgame, nobody was going through all that trouble because it was her lifelong dream to wear a pretty dress.

Nope, prince was just a happy accident. She wanted to go to the ball, it was about getting out the house and out from under her step-mother's thumb. She never talked about wanting to meet, dance with, or even see the prince. She talked about making a dress and going to the ball. The step-sisters talked about the prince.

Because she already had (romantic) love, the restaurant was merely a nice bonus. I really didn't like that message.</I. I can see where that would bug you, but at the same time, I feel like the larger problem was skewed priorities for both Tiana and Naveen.

Ursula would never have made a deal that she thought Ariel could fulfill.

Ursula knew there was a good chance Ariel could hold up her end of the bargain, it was just irrelevant as she never intended to let her do it. What Disney did was odd - they put so much effort into changing the sea witch from the fairytale into an antagonist but then didn't allow Ariel to fight with her. Ariel's focus was getting to Eric, not showdowning with Ursula, up until the very end.

She wanted to go to the ball, it was about getting out the house and out from under her step-mother's thumb.

She originally intended to go to the ball with her stepmother and sisters, she had no animosity towards them. The opening song of the film is about a dream she has in her heart that came before she ever knew about any ball and is heavily implied to be true love - like Snow White's opener, only more vague. Her fairy godmother fulfilled her heart's wish.

I feel like the larger problem was skewed priorities for both Tiana and Naveen.

I know that's what they were trying to sell, but I don't feel they sold it hard enough on Tiana's side of things. Naveen's laziness got him disowned and turned into a frog, so he had to learn the value of work. Tiana's hard work got her...what? What was the negative consequence?

Ursula knew there was a good chance Ariel could hold up her end of the bargain

No! She actually says, "That was a close one. Too close. The little tramp! Oh, she's better than I thought. At this rate, he'll be kissing her by sunset for sure." She didn't expect to need to take things into her own hands.

What Disney did was odd - they put so much effort into changing the sea witch from the fairytale into an antagonist but then didn't allow Ariel to fight with her. Ariel's focus was getting to Eric, not showdowning with Ursula, up until the very end.

lol, yeah, because Ariel attacked Ursula, Ursula turned her wrath on Ariel more than Eric. Also, Ariel didn't know what an antagonist Ursula was until she had practically married Eric!

She originally intended to go to the ball with her stepmother and sisters, she had no animosity towards them. The opening song of the film is about a dream she has in her heart that came before she ever knew about any ball and is heavily implied to be true love - like Snow White's opener, only more vague. Her fairy godmother fulfilled her heart's wish.

I'd disagree that she wanted to go with them as one big happy family. She wanted to go with and argued that she should be able to as she was 'eligible' not because she was a step-daughter or whatever. It was a matter of logistics, not she wanted to be with them. Her heart's wish was definitely love, but it's not like she was out to find a husband at the ball! What strikes me is that what actually gets her her freedom is that the person she fell in love with happened to be a prince with the power to get her out of there (a complete shock to her who had viewed it as a kiddie-friendly one night stand, a fun night that was never going to happen again).

I know that's what they were trying to sell, but I don't feel they sold it hard enough on Tiana's side of things.

I know, but I feel like the character would have been very unlikeable she had been snippy to her family and friends. I also feel like that would have had potential racial problems. She would have been both the hard working black woman and the angry black woman. They wanted her to be relatable for all little black girls, and that means trimming off edge.

She didn't expect to need to take things into her own hands.

She didn't expect to have to do it so soon. But she took Ariel's voice in the first place as insurance, so she was never so confident as to leave it to chance. Ariel didn't make a deal impossible in and of itself, she just made one with a cheater.

lol, yeah, because Ariel attacked Ursula, Ursula turned her wrath on Ariel more than Eric. Also, Ariel didn't know what an antagonist Ursula was until she had practically married Eric!

Ariel attacked Ursula once then fled to the surface to find Eric. Why? To get his help? To protect him? Go warn your kingdom, you silly fish.

Her heart's wish was definitely love, but it's not like she was out to find a husband at the ball! What strikes me is that what actually gets her her freedom is that the person she fell in love with happened to be a prince with the power to get her out of there

That's what I'm saying. The way I see it, the reason her fairy godmother showed up that night in particular and never before was because she'd finally found a path to fulfilling her charge's wish: Get her to the ball, put her in the path of the prince. Cinderella herself was ignorant of the long goal to keep her character innocent, but her good fortune wasn't chance or cosmic fate, it was carefully arranged.

I know, but I feel like the character would have been very unlikeable she had been snippy to her family and friends.

No more than Lottie was unlikeable by being spoiled or Naveen being lazy, IMO. What made you forgive their flaws was that their hearts were good, and Tiana's was too, so she wouldn't have needed to be mean, just make mistakes. A scene of her turning down spending time with her mother to work, or, say, sleeping through Lottie's birthday party because she was so exhausted, would have better set up the framework for "don't lose sight of your loved ones for your dream". But yeah, Disney was navigating a very delicate landscape (as evidenced by all the shit they got for starting her out as "Maddy the chambermaid") and it caused them to take fewer risks with Tiana's character. Sad.

She didn't expect to have to do it so soon. But she took Ariel's voice in the first place as insurance, so she was never so confident as to leave it to chance. Ariel didn't make a deal impossible in and of itself, she just made one with a cheater.

Yeah, she has it as an insurance policy she was never planning on needing. That's why she had a bunch of other trinkets from other people she had scammed. She's a scammer, but she never expected to need it. It's not like Ursula knew that Eric had a memory of Ariel's voice.

Ariel attacked Ursula once then fled to the surface to find Eric. Why? To get his help? To protect him? Go warn your kingdom, you silly fish.

To get him to a boat so he wouldn't have been drowned in the next 30 seconds? Sorry, but I'd do the same.

Cinderella herself was ignorant of the long goal to keep her character innocent, but her good fortune wasn't chance or cosmic fate, it was carefully arranged.

I disagree. No one had the plan she would marry the prince.

Tiana's was too, so she wouldn't have needed to be mean, just make mistakes.

She did make mistakes by being too focused on work. Lottie was actually very surprising as she could have been nasty very easily, but they showed that she was inherently generous. Naveen was a little unlikable at the beginning; he was an idiot play boy!

A scene of her turning down spending time with her mother to work

She turned down some of her black friends at the dinner. I'll definitely agree that they didn't make much of an impact, and it would have been stronger with her mom.

Disney was navigating a very delicate landscape (as evidenced by all the shit they got for starting her out as "Maddy the chambermaid") and it caused them to take fewer risks with Tiana's character. Sad.

Yeah, I get the feeling that a lot of their recent movies have that "designed by committee" feel for a reason and it is a pity. I just had to think of what a fine line it had to have been: can't have any stereotypes, but must still have a message, it is worse to have a non-black prince and she still marries a white guy or better to have a black prince and then the black princess can only marry a black prince, she has to be American so that her story is more in line with black Americans, as opposed to being an exotic African princess, and she had to be a real princess, not just a heroine. It would be a nightmare!

Didn't she? She watched the entire scene with the prince, I assumed she heard him say "she had the most beautiful voice" and that was why she decided Ariel's voice would be the payment, since it was the one thing he remembered about her. It would have been really risky to not know if Eric could identify Ariel otherwise, since "instant true love" was a legitimate thing. One kiss on that beach with the girl he knew had rescued him that he'd been pining after ever since...

I disagree. No one had the plan she would marry the prince.

I guess we just disagree on this then.

She did make mistakes by being too focused on work.

Which brings us back to my entire original position: That those so-called mistakes lacked the necessary impact for an Aesop lesson. It just wasn't enough to convince me Tiana was working too hard.

she has to be American so that her story is more in line with black Americans, as opposed to being an exotic African princess

I agree with everything but this. The only other American princess Disney ever had was Pocahontas, there was no reason to make Tiana American. That's one pitfall Disney made up all on their own.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-24 23:07 (UTC) - Expand

Did you miss the part where she gets about 10 seconds of sleep and where she always ditches her friends to work? Both are detrimental, particularly the 10 seconds of sleep a night.

I didn't miss it, but I might as well have for all the impact it had on the lesson the movie ultimately wanted to teach. She was a poor woman who had to help support herself and mother after her father's death, of course she had to work like crazy, dream or no. Like I said, showing her ignoring her mom and hurting her best friend would have driven the point home.

She was a poor woman who had to help support herself and mother after her father's death

It seems pretty clear to me that she wasn't supporting her mother - her mother was pretty self-sufficient. Her mother was still a tailor (or whatever you want to call it). Tiana was working two jobs because she wanted more. It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.

of course she had to work like crazy, dream or no

She was working like crazy for what she wanted.

Helping to support herself and her mother was what I said - they shared salaries and they were still poor/lower working-class. Under those circumstances, Tiana's restaurant came off as more than just a personal dream to me, it was a means to improve her quality of life. Which is another thing I didn't like - it's only great to wax poetic about how money doesn't matter when you have enough to be comfortable. When you don't, it seems almost condescending.

It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.

So the message was, don't worry so much about what you want because you already have what you need. That's fine, but like I said, there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.

Helping to support herself and her mother was what I said - they shared salaries

Um... I see this nowhere in the movie? In addition, it's heavily implied that Theodora is still making dresses for Lottie, whereas Tiana is either supporting herself, or living under her mother's roof, either way a second job seems to for the sole purpose of making money for the restaurant.

Tiana's restaurant came off as more than just a personal dream to me, it was a means to improve her quality of life.

I can see that, but I also feel like the movie implied it was mainly a personal dream.

Which is another thing I didn't like - it's only great to wax poetic about how money doesn't matter when you have enough to be comfortable.

Well, comfort is extremely subjective, but considering she had enough to get a costume for the Masquerade ball, I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.

there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.

I think the strongest condemnation was also the most subtle. When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything because he never got the mill, even though he provided for his family, etc.

Didn't they live together? So they would automatically share the burdens of the household. And yeah, Tiana's second job was to invest in a restaurant which, if successful, I assumed would bring in a larger income than the two menial jobs she and her mother had, possibly even allowing her mother to stop working altogether.

I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.

Even if she wasn't on the street, the film went through some trouble to contrast her family's status and Lottie's. I don't know what the point of that was if not to emphasize Tiana's financial difficulties, especially since Lottie's wealth had no downsides. Because of that and the fact that Tiana didn't worship money to begin with, I didn't understand the emphasis on not worshiping money (in Mama Odie's song in particular).

When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything even though he provided for his family,

That's an interesting catch, I missed that. That I did, though, is my point. Bits like that (including Tiana's crowning moment of awesome in rejecting Facilier's deal when realizing her father's life wasn't wasted) are overshadowed by the focus on the relationship with Naveen, instead of Tiana's relationship with her family.

Didn't they live together?

I don't know. It's unclear. She was surprised to see her mother at the mill.

Tiana's second job was to invest in a restaurant which, if successful, I assumed would bring in a larger income than the two menial jobs she and her mother had, possibly even allowing her mother to stop working altogether.

I can see that, but it was also heavily implied that she was in it for the love of cooking, not for financial reasons.

I don't know what the point of that was if not to emphasize Tiana's financial difficulties, especially since Lottie's wealth had no downsides.

I think that is was important to show New Orleans as a varied city, and I don't think you would have been happy if they had completely swept the poverty of the black community round about the turn of the century under the rug. I think it was also in large part to show why she focused on hard work. She wasn't getting everything handed to her on a silver platter.

Because of that and the fact that Tiana didn't worship money to begin with, I didn't understand the emphasis on not worshiping money (in Mama Odie's song in particular).

...Because Naveen did and there were two main characters? The first verse is about Naveen's money obsession, but Tiana's half and big finale was all about her tunnel vision.

Bits like that (including Tiana's crowning moment of awesome in rejecting Facilier's deal when realizing her father's life wasn't wasted) are overshadowed by the focus on the relationship with Naveen, instead of Tiana's relationship with her family.

Because working hard is a good thing, just not in extremis for something you don't 'need' (which is where she was taking it). You also don't want to have her be an unappealing character and screaming at her mother is a great way to lose her appeal and make her seem immature (compare to Ariel who does yell at Triton, and is a lot less mature). It could have been nice to she her relationship with her family more, but it's hard to make a believable movie where a lower class American woman could legitimately fall in love and marry a European prince, and I do think it was important to make her a real princess instead of a girl in a pretty dress. No one wants an asterisk next to the only black princess's name.

I think that is was important to show New Orleans as a varied city, and I don't think you would have been happy if they had completely swept the poverty of the black community round about the turn of the century under the rug.

This is why I felt Disney shot themselves in the foot by setting the story in 1920s New Orleans in the first place. Tiana never had a chance to have a story free of class and racial bullshit. Disney stayed loyal to limitations they never had to set to begin with, for reasons I may never understand (to exploit jazz music for the soundtrack is my first theory, but then they could have used Harlem much better for that, and with fewer problematic stereotypes like rednecks and voodoo).

...Because Naveen did and there were two main characters?

Oh, whoops, I misinterpreted the song, my apologies.

You also don't want to have her be an unappealing character and screaming at her mother is a great way to lose her appeal and make her seem immature

She didn't need to go that far. She just needed to be slightly more visibly flawed, which could have been covered by just one scene of her work interfering with her relationships.

It could have been nice to she her relationship with her family more, but it's hard to make a believable movie where a lower class American woman could legitimately fall in love and marry a European prince, and I do think it was important to make her a real princess instead of a girl in a pretty dress.

See my first bit about Disney shooting themselves in the foot. Why couldn't Naveen have been an African prince? Hell, why couldn't Tiana have been a African princess of a fantasy kingdom based off Kush, Ashanti, Yoruba? Or Disney-fy the Greek Andromeda myth (the princess and her parents were Ethiopian)? People of black descent don't lack for a rich history of royalty and fairytales, so copypasting a black woman into a European fairytale with a European prince in modern America was just...kind of a waste of a great opportunity.

Why couldn't Naveen have been an African prince? Hell, why couldn't Tiana have been a African princess of a fantasy kingdom based off Kush, Ashanti, Yoruba? Or Disney-fy the Greek Andromeda myth (the princess and her parents were Ethiopian)?

That's what I wondered! I would have loved to see a fantasy kingdom based off of somewhere we don't get to see in movies very often (i.e., anywhere that isn't Europe).

Seriously! I look at a game like Guild Wars: Nightfall that's set on a fantasy continent that's based heavily on North Africa (it's freaking gorgeous) and I wish Disney had gone that route for their first movie with a majority-black cast.

Tiana never had a chance to have a story free of class and racial bullshit. Disney stayed loyal to limitations they never had to set to begin with, for reasons I may never understand (to exploit jazz music for the soundtrack is my first theory, but then they could have used Harlem much better for that, and with fewer problematic stereotypes like rednecks and voodoo).

Because I think it would have been worse to not show it? People would still be complaining that Disney didn't make a black princess and that it tried to side-step all the issues, etc.

She didn't need to go that far. She just needed to be slightly more visibly flawed, which could have been covered by just one scene of her work interfering with her relationships.

Well, they did have that, just not in any significant way, which I agree would have been a lot better.

Why couldn't Naveen have been an African prince? Hell, why couldn't Tiana have been a African princess of a fantasy kingdom based off Kush, Ashanti, Yoruba? Or Disney-fy the Greek Andromeda myth (the princess and her parents were Ethiopian)? People of black descent don't lack for a rich history of royalty and fairytales, so copypasting a black woman into a European fairytale with a European prince in modern America was just...kind of a waste of a great opportunity.

Personally I think that it would be avoiding the issue in a sweeping-it-under-the-rug way. People would be all about how Disney would never have a black American character, etc. Also, I have a feeling they would get some flack for having the "ethnic Barbie" thing. In western cultures only white girls are special, etc. There's also a hell of a lot of issue that they dodge by avoiding the African continent, in particular making her seem tribal or by dodging the issue and making her Egyptian which is often considered part of "Western culture" too.

Oh, sorry I forgot to say: I think it was better in the long run for the couple to be inter-racial. It removes some of the "like with like" implications that you sometimes get. It's also implied that at least part of Naveen's heritage is Indian which I think is considered South East Asia?

(no subject)

darkmanifest.livejournal.com - 2012-03-24 21:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-24 22:58 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

darkmanifest.livejournal.com - 2012-03-24 23:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-26 07:08 (UTC) - Expand

People would be all about how Disney would never have a black American character, etc.

Considering Disney has so few American characters of any color in the vast majority of their animated canon and that doesn't seem to bother anyone, I sincerely doubt this.

There's also a hell of a lot of issue that they dodge by avoiding the African continent, in particular making her seem tribal or by dodging the issue and making her Egyptian which is often considered part of "Western culture" too.

That so many people really do seem to feel that drawing and/or writing fantasy with African characters is a choice between Egypt and tribes in the bush makes me so sad that I could not begin to express it. What I would give for an animated movie that finally blows that erroneous perception out of the water. Maybe some are out there and I need to stop expecting Western animators to provide it. To be honest, of all animation companies, Disney is the one I'd trust least to do it right. So maybe it's for the best.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-24 23:03 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

darkmanifest.livejournal.com - 2012-03-25 00:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-03-26 07:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

darkmanifest.livejournal.com - 2012-03-25 00:16 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, I can understand and appreciate what they were trying to do, I just didn't like the execution. Mulan is an excellent example of how to have a romantic happy ending without overshadowing the heroine's non-romance-related accomplishments and goals in the slightest.

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