[ SECRET POST #1907 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1907 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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07.
[Disney's Gargoyles]


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08.
[X-Men: First Class]


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09.
[keanu reeves]


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10.
[keanu reeves]


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]


















11. [SPOILERS for Death Note]



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12. [SPOILERS for Kuragehime]



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13. [SPOILERS for The Walking Dead]



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14. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]



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15. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]



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16. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]



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17. [SPOILERS for Mass Effect 3]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]



















18. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]



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19. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]



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20. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I didn't like it because the "lesson" felt waaay too much like "it's wrong to be a woman with big career aspirations and no romantic aspirations, and you'll be happy once you get a man!"
Yes I know that it was supposed to be about the main character working too hard and never letting herself have fun or have a break, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. Like when it was the evil choice to get the restaurant but she had to give it up for her man; I know it was a life and death thing with the villain, but again, it's the bigger social context and the general feel that I didn't like, even if the specific situations in the movie were technically okay.

[(Anonymous)]

Disney did the same thing to a male character in Hercules.

[(Anonymous)]

Hercules didn't know his "family" at all. He just wanted acceptance, that's all. He sings a whole song about it. Megara had that for him. It's pretty explicitly said.

[(Anonymous)]

Did you miss the part where Hercules had done all those great thing, saved countless people, but he wasn't a hero until he loved someone?

That was pretty fucking explicit too.

[(Anonymous)]

He wasn't a hero until he proved he was willing to sacrifice himself for someone else. That he loved her was irrelevant.

[(Anonymous)]

"A hero isn't measured by the size of his strength, but the strength of his heart."

Come on, if Hercules was a woman you'd be all over all her great deeds and walking in to fight a monster with no real strength, aka basically a death sentence, to save a city wasn't enough, it was only when she was going to sacrifice her life for her true love that she could be a "real hero."

Don't change the standards because you don't want to admit the point that it was all about finding love and sacrificing for love.

[(Anonymous)]

I love how you assume that the previous anon has different standards.

Regardless, yes, he loved her, but previously his heroic deeds had all been done in the name of getting popular, or some other ulterior motive. Saving Megara was the only thing he did that was selfless.

I think more people would be upset if Hercules had been a woman and the same had happened, but they wouldn't be more right for it.

[(Anonymous)]

It was the evil choice because it went against everything she had believed in up until that point, which was probably the biggest thing. She wasn't earning it: it was being handed to her for screwing someone else over, taking the easy way out as opposed to working hard.

I think she ended up realizing that she may lose the mill, in the end, but if she became human, she could always buy another location. Her father wanted her to be happy and remember what was important--that you can work hard, but if that's all you do, then what's it for? Which is what she realized watching her daddy on the porch. He had love--her and her mother. she still had her mother, she could still make friends and relax a little, could still have Naveen and open her restaurant, albeit at another location, making it more HER dream and not her daddy's--because she had already made him proud by working hard and caring for her mother, and he WOULD be very proud of her for standing up for her beliefs against Facilier.

[(Anonymous)]

No, it's easier to just hate Disney.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Eyeeeah, I agree. It's so rare to get a heroine who has a specific, practical thing she wants to achieve (the only other one was Mulan), so while I understand that the lesson was not working so hard you forget your loved ones, it was poorly framed and came off as "get a man above all else!" If Tiana had been shown neglecting her mother or her best friend in her frenzy to get a restaurant, then yeah, it would have made sense, but frankly the movie didn't convince me she was working so hard it was detrimental to her. Maybe I need to rewatch, but what I mainly remember is being really annoyed that she resigned herself to life as a frog with Naveen without a single mention of, you know, her freaking mother who had no idea what had happened to her. It was just...yeah, no.

[(Anonymous)]

Snow White wanted a man. Cinderella wanted out of her miserable life. Aurora wanted a man. Ariel wanted to live on the human world. Belle was the most vague all of the girl's had ("adventure in the great wide somewhere"). Jasmine didn't want to be constrained by royal life, as with Pocahontas. Mulan wanted to save her dad and be herself. Rapunzel wanted to see the lanterns (and also experience the outside world.)

Almost all of them wanted something in particular. Tiana wanted a specific place, sure, but they all wanted something and knew what they wanted (with the maybe exception of Belle).

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

My apologies, I wasn't specific. There are very few heroines who had a specific goal that didn't require some dude or romance to achieve. Belle's way out of her provincial life was Adam, Ariel's motivation to become human was Eric, Rapunzel's way out of the tower was Flynn, Jasmine's window to adventure was Aladdin, Pocahontas was driven to action by Smith, Cinderella was saved from her family by what's-his-face. And the rest of them just wanted some dude, like you said. Mulan's relationship with Shang was irrelevant to her goals, he helped and was a friend, but he wasn't a key aspect of her actions or motivations. So Tiana prioritizing Naveen over such an awesome dream was dismaying for me. I wanted her adventure to lend her a solution to the problem of getting her restaurant, not land her a man (or make marrying the man the solution).

[(Anonymous)]

Ariel's motivation to become human was Eric

Erm, no. He was the catalyst if you really want to nail it down, but her motivation was always having a love of human culture, and her father not accepting it. It was more her running away to join the circus human world, Eric was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It was all about her and her dad.

Cinderella was saved from her family by what's-his-face

The fairy godmother? Jaq and Gus? Seriously they all did a lot more for Cinderela than Prince Charming.

I wanted her adventure to lend her a solution to the problem of getting her restaurant

Did you miss that it was Louis that helped her get her restaurant a lot more than Naveen?

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Yes, I concede that, he was more the catalyst than the initial motivation, but Ariel's fate and ability to remain in the human world hinged solely on her relationship with him rather than on herself. That was a problem in the original story, but it certainly could have been rewritten by Disney. (And, I just realized, was replicated to an extent with PatF Tiana's life was ruined by Naveen, but that was okay, because she fell for him - while losing everything else. Sure, it all worked out in the end, but it troubled me that she spent the whole movie not fixing her problems, but solving his.)

The fairy godmother? Jaq and Gus? Seriously they all did a lot more for Cinderella than Prince Charming.

The purpose of that help was to get her to a ball where the prince was looking for a bride. The prince was the endgame, nobody was going through all that trouble because it was her lifelong dream to wear a pretty dress.

Did you miss that it was Louis that helped her get her restaurant a lot more than Naveen?

Ah, right, that's true, her adventure got her Louis. At that point it felt like it didn't matter, though, and it was treated like it didn't, by resolving Tiana's original problem so flippantly. Because she already had (romantic) love, the restaurant was merely a nice bonus. I really didn't like that message.

[(Anonymous)]

but Ariel's fate and ability to remain in the human world hinged solely on her relationship with him rather than on herself.

Well, yes, but that was kind of the point. Ursula would never have made a deal that she thought Ariel could fulfill. I always found it funny that even though it has two very strong female characters it fails the Bechdel test on purpose. Ariel repeatedly tries to focus on her family and how leaving would effect them, but Ursula keeps steering it back to Princey, trying to put blinders on her.

The purpose of that help was to get her to a ball where the prince was looking for a bride. The prince was the endgame, nobody was going through all that trouble because it was her lifelong dream to wear a pretty dress.

Nope, prince was just a happy accident. She wanted to go to the ball, it was about getting out the house and out from under her step-mother's thumb. She never talked about wanting to meet, dance with, or even see the prince. She talked about making a dress and going to the ball. The step-sisters talked about the prince.

Because she already had (romantic) love, the restaurant was merely a nice bonus. I really didn't like that message.</I. I can see where that would bug you, but at the same time, I feel like the larger problem was skewed priorities for both Tiana and Naveen.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Ursula would never have made a deal that she thought Ariel could fulfill.

Ursula knew there was a good chance Ariel could hold up her end of the bargain, it was just irrelevant as she never intended to let her do it. What Disney did was odd - they put so much effort into changing the sea witch from the fairytale into an antagonist but then didn't allow Ariel to fight with her. Ariel's focus was getting to Eric, not showdowning with Ursula, up until the very end.

She wanted to go to the ball, it was about getting out the house and out from under her step-mother's thumb.

She originally intended to go to the ball with her stepmother and sisters, she had no animosity towards them. The opening song of the film is about a dream she has in her heart that came before she ever knew about any ball and is heavily implied to be true love - like Snow White's opener, only more vague. Her fairy godmother fulfilled her heart's wish.

I feel like the larger problem was skewed priorities for both Tiana and Naveen.

I know that's what they were trying to sell, but I don't feel they sold it hard enough on Tiana's side of things. Naveen's laziness got him disowned and turned into a frog, so he had to learn the value of work. Tiana's hard work got her...what? What was the negative consequence?

[(Anonymous)]

Did you miss the part where she gets about 10 seconds of sleep and where she always ditches her friends to work? Both are detrimental, particularly the 10 seconds of sleep a night.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

I didn't miss it, but I might as well have for all the impact it had on the lesson the movie ultimately wanted to teach. She was a poor woman who had to help support herself and mother after her father's death, of course she had to work like crazy, dream or no. Like I said, showing her ignoring her mom and hurting her best friend would have driven the point home.

[(Anonymous)]

She was a poor woman who had to help support herself and mother after her father's death

It seems pretty clear to me that she wasn't supporting her mother - her mother was pretty self-sufficient. Her mother was still a tailor (or whatever you want to call it). Tiana was working two jobs because she wanted more. It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.

of course she had to work like crazy, dream or no

She was working like crazy for what she wanted.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Helping to support herself and her mother was what I said - they shared salaries and they were still poor/lower working-class. Under those circumstances, Tiana's restaurant came off as more than just a personal dream to me, it was a means to improve her quality of life. Which is another thing I didn't like - it's only great to wax poetic about how money doesn't matter when you have enough to be comfortable. When you don't, it seems almost condescending.

It's made pretty explicit that she had enough to get what she needed.

So the message was, don't worry so much about what you want because you already have what you need. That's fine, but like I said, there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.

[(Anonymous)]

Helping to support herself and her mother was what I said - they shared salaries

Um... I see this nowhere in the movie? In addition, it's heavily implied that Theodora is still making dresses for Lottie, whereas Tiana is either supporting herself, or living under her mother's roof, either way a second job seems to for the sole purpose of making money for the restaurant.

Tiana's restaurant came off as more than just a personal dream to me, it was a means to improve her quality of life.

I can see that, but I also feel like the movie implied it was mainly a personal dream.

Which is another thing I didn't like - it's only great to wax poetic about how money doesn't matter when you have enough to be comfortable.

Well, comfort is extremely subjective, but considering she had enough to get a costume for the Masquerade ball, I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.

there was far too little emphasis on the downsides of prioritizing work over family and friends for me to buy that moral.

I think the strongest condemnation was also the most subtle. When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything because he never got the mill, even though he provided for his family, etc.

[darkmanifest.livejournal.com]

Didn't they live together? So they would automatically share the burdens of the household. And yeah, Tiana's second job was to invest in a restaurant which, if successful, I assumed would bring in a larger income than the two menial jobs she and her mother had, possibly even allowing her mother to stop working altogether.

I guess I'm under the impression that she wasn't hurting. She didn't have enough for many luxuries, but it's not like she was on the brink of starvation either.

Even if she wasn't on the street, the film went through some trouble to contrast her family's status and Lottie's. I don't know what the point of that was if not to emphasize Tiana's financial difficulties, especially since Lottie's wealth had no downsides. Because of that and the fact that Tiana didn't worship money to begin with, I didn't understand the emphasis on not worshiping money (in Mama Odie's song in particular).

When Tiana and her mom are touring the old mill she says "I got to make sure all that hard work means something," as opposed to her father's work not meaning anything even though he provided for his family,

That's an interesting catch, I missed that. That I did, though, is my point. Bits like that (including Tiana's crowning moment of awesome in rejecting Facilier's deal when realizing her father's life wasn't wasted) are overshadowed by the focus on the relationship with Naveen, instead of Tiana's relationship with her family.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can understand and appreciate what they were trying to do, I just didn't like the execution. Mulan is an excellent example of how to have a romantic happy ending without overshadowing the heroine's non-romance-related accomplishments and goals in the slightest.

[(Anonymous)]

OP > Oh geez, I never thought about it that way before but now I don't think I'll be able to un-see it.

On the one hand, she does get her restaurant as well as the romance so it wasn't like she gave up her career to be with him, but they certainly did make it sound like she wouldn't be happy with her dream job unless she had a man by her side.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my problem was in the execution of the lesson and the way it came off. A previous commenter brought up Mulan, who contrasts nicely because her goals and successes are primary with any romance subplot being entirely secondary, and not at all predatory to her autonomy in the main plot. She doesn't give up her goal to be with Shang and then manage to have China saved anyway, she saves China and then ends up with Shang almost as an afterthought. I didn't need PatF to be that distant toward the love story, but I wanted her personal goals to be respected alongside it and not be portrayed as so detrimental, such that it can be included as almost an afterthought at the end of the movie that she got her restaurant.