[ SECRET POST #2221 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2221 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 022 secrets from Secret Submission Post #317.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

15. http://i.imgur.com/0PMrjvj.png

[(Anonymous)]

THIS x1000.

Writing morally ambiguous characters =/= condoning the actions of those characters.

Why do so many people in fandom find this so difficult to comprehend?

[insanenoodlyguy]

Because Black/White contrast between good and evil is done a lot, especially in younger age stories, and not everybody grows into more nuanced preferences. Or realizes that could be a thing on their own.

[aquila_black]

Because there are so many stories where the author thinks it's their job to give everyone their "just desserts" before the end, I'd imagine. So if evil goes unpunished, or the protagonist does something that isn't good, but doesn't come back to bite them, a subset of the audience assumes it's because the author thinks that's completely okay and is encouraging its existence. By not squashing it in their story.

And I know ... it's a dynamic I loathe. My job as a writer is not to baby-sit other people's virtue, or artificially balance my characters' karma.

[(Anonymous)]

This pretty much sums up the Korra fandom. One man chains up children and he's a misunderstood woobie who is in a secret slash relationship with his underling, another person kisses someone back while in a new relationship and he's devil spawn that the writers were horrible for creating!

[(Anonymous)]

^ THIS

so with you on that. I am so sick of all the frothing Mako hate. Yeah , he did a shitty thing. But he's not a horrible human being and he's not a developing psychopath or domestic abuser either. ( I swear I've seen people saying he 's likely to develop into a domestic abuser. It's what fanfiction writers do. Canon guy makes them mad or gets in the way of their ship? They turn him into a wife beater. Stole the favorite pen of your favorite character? "He's clearly developing into a wife beater/rapist STOP BEING AN APOLOGIST FOR HIM")

[(Anonymous)]

any points ever























































some birds























your head

[(Anonymous)]

LOL at all the butthurt Korra fans who hate Mako. How dare you question their hate for a fictional character that never actually cheated on anyone in reality. ;^;

[(Anonymous)]

Ehh, apples and oranges. People expect different things out of characters positioned as heroes than those positioned as villains; it's normal for there to be something of a double standard regarding what behavior does or doesn't cross the line into unlikeability.

If people are actually morally equating one with the other, then yeah, that's a bit ridiculous- but if your problem is just that fandom sentiment turned against one character while still enjoying someone objectively worse, then you need to cool down and accept that this is just part of how engagement with fiction often works.

[(Anonymous)]

Can you give some examples, OP?

The hero's morals *often* reflect the author's, and even when they don't, usually the world is reflected to show them anyway. If the hero does something amoral, then other characters or some consequences happen to indicate that.

Without examples, I can't tell if it's an example of people being unfair to the author, or you missing the signs that the author DOES mean for the hero's actions to be moral.

[(Anonymous)]

not OP, but I remember rolling my eyes at...I *think* it was this page on tvtropes...when someone laid out this great big six-point explanation for why the Tenth Doctor was soooooooo wrong for getting Harriet Jones booted out of office. And then tried to claim it was an example of "dissonance" simply because none of the characters explicitly yelled at him for it, even though it was still obviously portrayed as a no-no during the series.

[(Anonymous)]

The hero's morals *often* reflect the author's, and even when they don't, usually the world is reflected to show them anyway. If the hero does something amoral, then other characters or some consequences happen to indicate that.

That's really, really not true, in a lot of works. You can in a lot of cases talk about an author's moral sensibility on the evidence of his work, I won't deny that, but I really don't think you can do so in the kind of in-universe way that you're indicating here - that is to say, I really don't think you can say as a general rule that the universe indicates the moral preferences of the author. It's simply not the case that in fiction bad things consistently happen to people who the author regards as bad, or that someone will disapprove if the protagonist does something amoral. It's, you know, a little more complicated than that.

[vicfrankenstein]

My example would be Dumbing of Age. That's the first one that comes to mind. David Willis's characters are almost all well-intentioned but deeply flawed characters in a variety of ways. They're also young, amd, you know, the whole title of the comic. Still, people get a raging hate-on over some things. Mostly because yeah, those flaws are super personal to them, and I get that, but then they pick apart any tiny thing or joke into "reasons why CharacterX is the FUCKING WORST."

I mean, I guess it doesn't fit perfectly with the secret, but it still came to mind.

[(Anonymous)]

LOL, the section on Merlin totally proves your point. What the hell.

[(Anonymous)]

Why?

[kaijinscendre]

Great. Now I got to check that page out. Time to spend the rest of the night on TVTropes. Damn you! *shakes first*

[(Anonymous)]

If you want to get out of there quick, just remind yourself that the site owner is one skeevy old bastard.

[insanenoodlyguy]

Just gonna leave this here.

You can leave it on in the background! and get disgusted with tv tropes all at once!

http://youtu.be/JyZA7rXpIxc

[(Anonymous)]

i only get antsy if the characters, fellow characters, creators or fans act like an action that would be considered negative wasn't bad because it was by the main character/a good guy*


I'm sure this is a trope too

[elephantinegrace]

Protagonist-Centered Morality

[(Anonymous)]

That's a trope called Protagonist Centered Morality.

That trope page is also full of editors who are under the impression that if a main character does something or expresses an opinion motivated by personal bias, it's actually intended to be a commandment of sacred moral truth.

[intrigueing]

IA that when fans do this, it's really eye-rolling (and sometimes frustrating, because they tend to go spread misinformation about it).

On the other hand, it's even worse when this trope actually does happen and the writers refuse to fix it *having Avengers vs X-Men thoughts*...

[(Anonymous)]

Is it as ridden with Menz Rightz as the rest of that site? Honestly guys, we get it. You're fourteen and feel oppressed, now quit it.

[(Anonymous)]

Menz Rightz? Really? I never saw it. All I see is a "Abuse is Okay if it's Female on Male" page. Which is, you know, a thing that happens on TV. A thing which is more misogynistic than ~oppressing teh menz~ because it shows writers assume women are fundamentally weak and ineffectual to the point where it's funny when they try to hurt men.

[rmg]

since people aren't capable of separating authors' personal views from those of characters who are clearly meant to be loathsome antagonists (see: that thing that went around tumblr a while ago demanding that hussie apologize for caliborn's misogyny when he's the villain of the fucking comic and his attitude towards women is one of his many explicitly negative qualities), expecting them to separate authors' personal views from flawed but sympathetic protagonists is probably a bridge too far

because audiences are dumb as shit

edit: in fact it doesn't even really just apply to morally ambiguous protagonists or whatever, since if something isn't a one-dimensional trash story even the most sympathetic heroes will have some flaws and do/say some things the author might not approve of