fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2231 ]

[ SECRET POST #2231 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2231 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 086 secrets from Secret Submission Post #319.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I always prefer subtitled, for a very valid reason:

Honorifics.

There is a world of difference in meaning between Usagi-chan, Usagi-kun, Usagi-sempai, Usagi-sensei, Usagi-neechan, Usagi-bocchama, Usagi-sama, Usagi-dono, plain (and oh-so-intimate) Usagi, and all the other suffixes I'm forgetting.

Dubs cannot portray all those relationship nuances. Usually, they don't even bother to try. When they do, you get "Mr" or "Miss", or "Lordship" or similar English forms of address.

Even if a subtitle leaves out the honorific, as most licensed professional ones do, you can still hear the honorific in the original language track.

How one character addresses another in anime is very important, as an indicator of relationship and personality. English and most other Western languages just aren't as capable of that. (See also the difference between the various ways of saying "I" or "Me". Boku, ore, atashi, watashi, watakushi.)

Also: Ishida Akira. Hayami Shou. Seki Tomokazu. Hayashibara Megumi. Shimamoto Sumi. Ueda Yuuji. Midorikawa Hikaru. Koyasu Takehito. And all my other favorite seiyuu.

We all have our reasons, OP. *shrug*

Takehito Koyasu! His voice in Toward the Terra is heaven.

I know, right? XD I fell in love with him as Hotohori in Fushigi Yuugi, and have kept an ear out for him ever since. I admire that he isn't afraid to ham it up, either. He's hilarious as Peche in Bleach. XD

Fucking bullshit. If you are listening to the story in Japanese as Japanese then honorifics matter. As soon as you leave the Japanese language for another, either in text or overdubbed, then you've already lost the cultural relevance of the honorific. To claim otherwise is just snobbery and cultural appropriation.

I am not Japanese. I do not fetish the culture. I do not pretend to be Japanese.

I have studied the language formally. I have watched endless hours of their entertainment, and read it in the original language. Because of that, I understand a difference between each of those honorifics I listed above. Do I understand them perfectly? No. Maybe in 20 years of continuous study, I would.

Do I understand the basic differences? Do I prefer to have those differences preserved by watching subtitled anime?

Yes.

LOL culture appropriation. Another idiot SJW

How is it cultural appropriation? I see this term used a lot, and in some contexts I honestly don't see how it applies. This is one of those contexts. From what I gather from common usage and Wikipedia's article (I'm not a native speaker of English, so I wanted to check to make sure) cultural appropriation means you take something that originated in a culture not your own and use it without regard for its meaning. Is that the definition you're using as well?

Because to me, caring about honorifics and other linguistic traits that are hard to translate would imply taking a genuine interest in another culture's way of speaking, interacting and maybe even thinking. And if that's supposed to be wrong, I'd very much like to know why. It doesn't sound like cultural appropriation at all to me; in fact, it sounds like the very opposite of appropriation.

Do you speak Japanese? Not to sound bitchy, but living in Japan, I can honestly say honorifics don't have half the meaning that western anime fans claim. There's a standard way of addressing people that does not refer to any personal feelings or creativity on an individual's part, it's all systematic. Sure, there's some culture to it, but it's not a culture that "loses total significance" if it's naturalized to English. If I call my friend Izumi-san because she's older than me, it really alters nothing if I translate this by just saying Izumi because that's how it would happen in the West.

And the "I" thing... again, hardly. People say I in ways that are generally regional for them to say. For example in Tokyo, most guys say "ore". It's not aggressive or sporty, even though you might learn that in a book, it's just what you get used to saying. An old man might say I differently, but speaking like an old man is not really something that is impossible to portray in English. Sure, it doesn't translate exactly, but it translates well enough: I. English is fully capable of expressing personality (if we choose to assume that Character A who says Boku is REALLY SIGNIFICANT because blahblahblah) in acting and plenty of vocabulary to choose from. English is a language with a lot of words and styles, meaning can absolutely be portrayed with an exact translation of a single word.

Basically, a good dub, imo, should translate in a way that stays true to the characters and stories without worrying about being TOO "accurate" in a way that takes away from the natural flow of dialogue. Things should not be translated word for word anyway, because that doesn't sound natural in English. They should be translated for the real meaning in a way that transfers significance to English and Western culture.

I have intermediate speaking and reading levels of Japanese. I have never visited Japan, due to financial and time reasons. I do plan to go one day. I want to visit Kyoto, specifically.

If you call your friend Izumi-san, it means you can not or will not call her Izumi-chan or just Izumi. Seems rather important to me. If that Izumi-san is turned into just Izumi for a dub, it removes that indicator of your relationship.

In what I have witnessed in entertainment, the version of I used does seem to be indicative of personality and circumstances. I take note of which version a character uses, as it adds to their character. I find it interesting that you say this is not very applicable IRL, but then, we aren't talking about IRL, are we? We're talking about subbed versus dubbed anime, and why I prefer the former.

If Ichigo calls himself "ore" even in front of Captain-Commander Yamato, that tells me about his character. If he switches to "boku" in front of someone else, I'll know he's up to something. This is fiction, and word choice can be very important.

speaking like an old man is not really something that is impossible to portray in English.

And that is precisely why I prefer subbed. Even if the subtitle doesn't manage to translate it well enough, I have the original Japanese to preserve it.

This all comes to my preference of wanting the original language preserved, honorifics, vocabulary, and any quirky speaking habits included.

They just fucking explicitly told you that choosing not to use Izumi-chan instead of Izumi-san doesn't actually mean that much in terms of closeness. (Even if this were true, you could indicate this in other ways - the honorific isn't important, what's important is the information the honorific theoretically conveys.)

You can indicate that Ichigo is up to something by changing the way he says things in English too! It won't explicitly be how he says "I" but the fact that he changed how he said "I" isn't important, what's important is that he changed his speaking style - again the fact that "I" was the specific word that was changed isn't actually important.

And you misread the sentence about the old man - you CAN convey that in English - they do it all the time in cartoons. There's a very distinct "old people talking" voice/way of speaking that they do.

Preferring the sub is fine, but don't act like it's impossible to get the same nuances in English - it's not.

Preferring the sub is fine, but don't act like it's impossible to get the same nuances in English - it's not.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

There is a phrase called 'lost in translation', and there are some cultural things that just do not translate.

Take a linguistics class or travel to a country that speaks another language. Not the tourist sites but the real deal. Ethnocentrism makes you think the world can easily be decoded with a Spanish-->English dictionary, and while that might help you with a few simple phrases ... the culture is another matter entirely.

Culture and language are what make people different and what makes different countries unique from each other. So, when you say things can be easily translated into English without losing any nuance, I can't help but call bullshit.

What I hate about dubs is the ethnocentrism - I love to use that word. They try to Americanize it (or whatever English speaking country) because they think people are too stupid to understand the more subtle references. It makes people uncomfortable to see things through another cultures lens, so it has to be filtered down for them.

I can't help but be reminded of that pokemon episode that turned an onigiri into a donut. That's pretty much the personification of what dubs are to me.

tl;dr: You are dead wrong if you think that no nuance of the original culture is lost when trying to make it more friendly for your own culture.

I sort of agree with you, but I also sort of disagree.

Sure, things get lost in translation. But are those things always important? And is it always a matter of ethnocentrism? No, I don't think so, not always.

Consider the target audience of Pokémon. Could children that age be expected to know what onigiri is, or to easily find out? I'd say no. 'Donut' is definitely ... not what I'd gone for, to be quite diplomatic; the only excuse for it that I can see is that it probably fit mouth movements pretty well (o + something else, could take about as long to say given how Japanese dialog tends to be reallyreallyfast). But you need to call it something, and I'm damned if I can think of a good alternative.

I'm a translator. I don't translate for TV or movies, but I have friends who do.

Can you always convey the same meaning in a translation as in the original? Pretty much, yes. In the same number of syllables, while taking mouth shape ('o' or 'ee', for instance), stress, and the question whether this is something an actual person would actually say into consideration? Yeah, no, you're going to have to settle for a simplification.

Of course, the lost information isn't always important, and you can do a lot with tone of voice, but the latter depends a lot on the dub script writers/translators, the directors and and the voice actors.

So do you prefer dubs when the anime is not set in Japan? Honorifics, etc are technically inappropriate when watching an anime such as Kuroshitsuji. If it's authenticity you prefer, I imagine every anime not set in Japan you naturally watch in English or the appropriate language native to the setting?

I watched Kuroshitsuji in Japanese, as with all anime, regardless of setting. It IS authentic, because that's how the mangaka and anime staff created it.

I prefer the original language in everything I watch, be it Japanese, French, Spanish, Swedish, etc.

YES TO ALL OF THIS, I love you, please marry me. <3

Oh my! My first proposal! *swoon*

I think it's a good idea to get to know you, first. ^^ Feel free to friend me here or on LJ, where I have the same username. If you do, please tell me it's you! *laughs*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2231 ]

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