[ SECRET POST #2301 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2301 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Sorry for lateness, had internet issues.

FOR LIVESTREAMERS: Please post stream announcements under the events thread instead of in the General Comments. And here's your warning: huge images are going to just be deleted. ):

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #329.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

10. http://i.imgur.com/qZOfbZX.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

By "companions" do you mean River Song, or all companions?

Because the other companions usually have a point when they tell him to get it together -- good intentions aren't sufficient, and being smacked around a bit is good for him. Hell he likes it when people remind him to be careful.

Which is not the same as telling him that the fact that people got scared of him because the villains spread propaganda about him because they were pissed about having their plans spoiled by him is totally his fault and that he shouldn't have done any of that stuff to piss people off, and talking about him behind his back like he's a spoiled five-year-old who needs to be coddled and manipulated.

[fauxkaren]

lol. The accuracy of this comment is hilarious. Especially that last paragraph. omg.

[fenm]

Yeah, the whole, "People are scared of you because they tried to take over (or, hell, DESTROY) the world/galaxy/universe and you stopped them" is like... Well, what the fuck do you want him to do, lady? LET THEM? Fine, let's have the Doctor sit back and let the goddamn Daleks take over the universe, will that shut you up? Oh, no, horrible people are afraid of the Doctor! Why is that a bad thing, again? Why is that something he should be ashamed of and criticized for? Jesus.

[sugar_spun]

I think there's some obvious truth to the fact that the Doctor goes overboard controlling the lives and fates of entire species--but I think the issue is that River's lectures are too meta. They're from a fan's POV; a fan who gets uncomfortable with the level of godmode-ing that the Doctor exacts often enough, but yet within the context of the series is meant to come off as just and fair. So we get a lecture about how he's wrong, yet the tone of the show doesn't regard him as having been wrong in the first place. The show is about an immortal alien saving the universe constantly.

[(Anonymous)]

and talking about him behind his back like he's a spoiled five-year-old who needs to be coddled and manipulated.

You know, I don't mind River being hard on him with the blame, because he's got a lot of power and should be held accountable for the consequences of his actions. The way she does it is a bit wtf, but I chalk it up to clunky writing and the fact Moffat lacks the attention span to sit still and explore issues deeply.

But this? I cannot fucking abide this. Can. Not. Abide. It. Nope. Nada. Uh uh. Not even a little. It is the actual last thing he needs. It is the actual worst thing for his attitude and his ego. And it has an actual in-universe regressive effect on his behavior. Give me Donna's constant straight-to-his-face bitching and snarking and teasing and ragging and needling any day. Even if it ultimately wasn't enough to help with the big things because RTD is a dick who refused to let character arcs progress naturally, it helped so many little things. And those are just as important. And it's those little things that have failed all over the damn place in season 6 and 7. Give it me. Any. Goddamn. Day.

[(Anonymous)]

Because it's okay to manipulate five-year-olds, right? I forgot that children aren't people and that it's okay to act like utter psychopaths towards them.

[(Anonymous)]

We have been watching different shows, there is no other explanation.

[(Anonymous)]

+1 I feel like everything in this thread is a huge WTF ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?!?! with regards to everything... especially the stuff about River...I don't even know what the hell these people are talking about. Totally different shows is right.

[intrigueing]

The hell are you talking about? When the Doctor's companions or friends criticize him, they almost always do it affectionately, respectfully, and constructively, unless he did something really bad. Yeah, sometimes he runs into ungrateful gits, and some people's attitudes towards him are just toxic and feed him horrible ideas (*cough* post-season-5!River *cough*) but he doesn't save people to get thanks, he saves them because he thinks all life is worth saving. The idea that he should stop saving people if they don't appreciate it enough is kind of gross, tbh.

Jack otoh...I haven't seen all of Torchwood, so I may be off the mark here, but you might have a point there. They're kind of really awful to him.

[(Anonymous)]

Jack otoh...I haven't seen all of Torchwood, so I may be off the mark here, but you might have a point there. They're kind of really awful to him.

I'm only on S2 of Torchwood, but almost every single episode I've seen made me wonder why the hell he bothers sticking around. The things they blame him for and accuse him of are just awful.

[(Anonymous)]

..and sometimes he acts like a dick, or way too inhumanly, and people leave him because of that. Companions don't always leave just because they're enormous gits.

[(Anonymous)]

Can't speak for the Doctor, but with Jack I think it's less that he gets blamed for everything, but that he gets blamed for the wrong things. The shit he should be held to the fire for tends to be overlooked, but then gets blamed for stuff he isn't actually responsible for. I suspect that's because there's nothing more likely to create sympathy for a character than a show constantly showing them being unfairly blamed or treated and Jack is pretty much the king of this.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree. I mean remember when Rory was all "you're turning me into you" when he had to choose between the two Amy's? And yeah, I know that he was put into a horrible position and probably stressed as all hell, but just the fact that he said it.

Though, to be fair, I do actually blame the Doctor for getting them put into that situation. He did land them there, after all. But still. Rory wasn't blaming him for that, he was blaming him for something else entirely, and I didn't approve at all.

If you pay attention, his companions often blame him for things that aren't his fault. ALL of them. The very first time I was fully of aware of it was when Ten was going through his regeneration illness and Rose said something along the lines of him "not being the Doctor because the Doctor would never do this"-- this being ill, apparently, and as such unable to save the world-- and yeah, I also get that she was scared, but c'mon. He blames himself for everything already, don't go adding to it.

I re-watched New Who recently and paid special attention to this. I never noticed before how much everyone blames him for everything. His companions and the people he saves, in particular.

Remember that Mars episode (forgot the title)? When they were all begging him to save them, and then when he did not a single one of them apologized for it. And the one who actually knew what was going, who STILL begged him to save them despite knowing that the event was a fixed point in time, suddenly turned on him. I know she HAD to do that to move his character forward, but just the fact that she did that, after everything, was so horrible.


They do this A LOT. In almost every episode, in fact. Someone is always blaming him for something, or holding him on some pedestal, or expecting something from him. And after he's saved everyone, rarely is anyone truly satisfied. More often than not they just blame him for something else.

Re-watching New Who was a real eye-opener.

[(Anonymous)]

*not a single one thanked him for it.

--- And you know what? They didn't have to thank him for it (though that would have been nice). It's not like he necessarily wants it. But they could at least have been appreciative. Or not treat him like a freak of nature afterward.

[(Anonymous)]

Yup, and also: the Christmas episode where Donna first made an appearance. She said a lot of horrible things to him, and while I understand that she was *understandably* distressed for obvious reasons, it was still gross. Not to mention ungrateful considering all he did for her.

And god, who was it again who told Ten that it was his fault that all of his companions turned into soldiers? I forget, but that really upset me as well.

[(Anonymous)]

It's true that a lot of it is unfair, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. People will be people, and they will be imperfect and they WILL hold the amazing magical badass genius alien to a higher standard, even when it's a bit unfair. Because he is a bit unfair. He's got abilities they can't match, and he should be extra extra careful about how he uses them and the consequences of them. Humans are a bit irrational and unfair, so he needs to take that into account when he saves them. And that's good for him.

And he knows it's good for him. Like when Donna points out how he killed the Racnoss babies -- she wasn't really criticizing him for killing them, they were about the eat the world after all and he begged the empress to let him help her and take her to an unpopulated planet and she refused. She was criticizing him for the way he just stood there silently and watched their mother screaming and crying without a flinch. And he understands that. He understands that he scared her, and that he was in a bad state of mind. He doesn't apologize for killing them, because he doesn't need to, but he's grateful to Donna for pointing out how he was behaving. So even if it's "unfair", I think him being keenly aware of the human perspective of how he comes off is good for him and he appreciates it quite deeply.

And I don't think it adds to his guilt complex. It usually makes him better and gives him a better perspective. It's the shit his enemies pull -- comparing him to them, adding to his guilt and horror over the whole Time War genocide even though he was saving the damn universe -- that's what adds to his guilt complex and makes him hate himself, not being criticized by humans.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't like Water of Mars, but I can't blame Adelaide for turning on him. She begs him to save them. He instead fills her head with the idea that the future of the world depend on her death to the point she starts to believe him then decides for his own angsty reasons to go against all that. So what else is she to think at that point other than she'll now be responsible for screwing up the entire world just by living. Maybe the companions etc. do blame him too much for things, but I'm not sure that's one of those occasions.

[(Anonymous)]

Um, the idea that he should stop saving people if they're ungrateful to him is incredibly disgusting. That's not why he does it. That's never been why he does it.

His reward is the fact that he's able to keep people alive when they would have otherwise died, and he feels that being able to keep people alive when they would have otherwise died is an honor.

He's honored to have the opportunity to stop people from dying, because a preserved life is far more amazing to him than any thanks or praise he could get. He would save the most ungrateful assholes ever and think it was worth it because he believes life is sacred and people deserve to live, even snotty bitchy people. Their opinion of him and what they choose to do after being saved is irrelevant.

[(Anonymous)]

How do the companions aggravate his guilt complex? They generally improve his attitude and make him a better person, and he seems to appreciate them a lot for it and likes it when they challenge him. The only people who unfairly aggravate his guilt complex are douchey narrow-minded supporting characters who think they know better than him, and his enemies (who try to get under his skin and pretend he's no better than them because of the Time War)..

On the other hand, I have an entire imaginary scene complete with cinematography and scripted dialogue in which Jack tells every single Torchwood character ever to go fuck themselves up the ass with a rusted spike. Seriously, fuckers, every one of them. (And of course, the things that he actually should get called out for are ignored. Idiotic show.)

[(Anonymous)]

As far Jack is concerned I agree it's ridiculous that he often gets blamed and even ridiculously punished for things that aren't his fault, but the show conveniently whitewashes the things he should be held to account for. But as far his team is concerned from the moment Jack let a dangerous alien out of the hub just to stop her dropping the Doctor's arm knowing it would kill people and did in fact kill a number of people I always thought he had exactly the team he deserved. Talk about leading by example namely the idea that in the face of personal self-interest the lives of others don't count for very much.

[(Anonymous)]

ITT: Nu!Who problems, tbqh.

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, his companions have been a guiding influence on his behavior for the whole show, usually by holding his actions up to scrutiny and complaining when he did questionable things.

Ian and Barbara got him to be kinder and confronted him over douchey amoral behavior or for treating them badly. Liz left him because she was tired of just being his assistant. Romana argued with him and kept his ego in check all the time. Tegan constantly called him out for his excuses when bad things happened and left him when the adventures became horrible soul-crushing conflicts, which gave him a bit of a wakeup call and made him resolve to change. And Ace made it clear she expected him to do good things all the time and sometimes yelled at him for manipulating her and thinking he could get away with it.

You can debate the fairness of all of those things just as much as with nu!Who. And he had issues with guilt over the horrible things that he was unable to prevent in much of the classic series too. Not nearly as many issues as in the new series, but then again, he hadn't yet been forced to genocide his whole species back then.

[(Anonymous)]

Totally not about the secret - but I'm not even a Doctor Who fan and I know it's not ok to write "Dr." instead of "Doctor."

[(Anonymous)]

It's not