fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2481 ]

[ SECRET POST #2481 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2481 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[game of thrones]

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02.

[Star Trek, Sleepy Hollow, Elementary]

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03.

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04.

[Junjou Romantica]

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05.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

06. [SPOILERS for Percy Jackson]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

07. [WARNING for suicide/self-harm]

[Slipknot]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #354.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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You find them gross all you like, it doesn't make them any "damaging" or "problematic" as if japanese porn manga (since I'm including hentai too), generally speaking, were ever supposed to be 100% realistic in the first place.

DA

How is romanticizing rape and sexual assualt not problematic in your opinion? Geniunely curious.

>Geniunely curious.

When people say this they're never genuinely curious.
Junjou isn't even about romanticizing rape and all that bullshit people come up with. The actual relationship between Misaki and Usami didn't start there, but at the end of volume 1 when Usami opened up for the first time. It grew from there, and it's a very beautiful relationship. I think what happened at the beginning of the volume was simply already forgiven by Misaki by the time Usagi apologized, and I respect Misaki's decision.

As for actual romanticizing rape and sexual assualt? I can name only very few series that do that, like Okane ga nai, and while I really don't like that series I'm not so dumb not to understand that it's just a piece of japanese fiction. You may have noticed that for all the demonizing yaoi gets, western authors have kept their own tropes, and tsundere in the bed either don't appear or are very different from their japanese counterparts. Maybe because most people have common sense and realized they were reading a piece of japanese fiction too. That's why I always roll my eyes when people say "problematic" like they're soccer moms trying to ban videogames.

Well, you certainly disagree with most of the people in this thread about what Junjou does or does not do. I, on the other hand, find the depiction of forgiveness in itself quite offensive, as if the offender "opening up" and turning out to be a pure, beautiful soul suddenly makes the ugliness of past action go away. The character isn't a real person, his "decision" is just a reflection of the author's belief.

So because western media also has problems, we should let yaoi off the hook? Why not criticize both, if there are flaws all around? Why this insistence on Japanese fiction being just fiction, as if it's special somehow? Fiction is fiction; if it has issues, people will point it out. If you don't think romanticizing sexual assault and excusing it is problematic, that's your call, but I will never be on the same page.

>I, on the other hand, find the depiction of forgiveness in itself quite offensive, as if the offender "opening up" and turning out to be a pure, beautiful soul suddenly makes the ugliness of past action go away.

In-series, that's not for you to decide. You're projecting your own beliefs on him now, also I completely disagree with you.

>The character isn't a real person, his "decision" is just a reflection of the author's belief.

Then why does everyone treat him as if he were a real person?

>So because western media also has problems, we should let yaoi off the hook? Why not criticize both, if there are flaws all around?

Dude. When I have said anything about problems? If anything I've pointed out how all your "problematic" stuff turned out to be much less "problematic" than you make it out to be.

>but I will never be on the same page

Don't worry, I'm not going to lose sleep over that.

The argument is that depiction of the character's action is problematic. When people say, "I think this was rape," they don't mean, "I treat this character like a real person commits sexual assault." They're saying, "This author wrote a story that depicts an incident I believe to be sexual assault."

Well, then we know how it stands. I think the tendency to excuse sexual assault as the character being tsundere is offensive, and very common in yaoi. Just as common as starting out a relationship with rape then developing it romantically. I think you're blindsided by the romance, which may actually be well-written. It is never necessary to include rape, it does nothing to improve on the relationship but actively makes the character repulsive to the readers. You can portray a dark, flawed character who has issues with relationships, without having him rape someone, especially if your goal is to write a romantic story.

>They're saying, "This author wrote a story that depicts an incident I believe to be sexual assault."

That's an opinion, okay.

>I think the tendency to excuse sexual assault as the character being tsundere is offensive

I disagree, because I see the two as two very distinct things.

>I think you're blindsided by the romance, which may actually be well-written.

I find it very well-written. I also think you're blindsided by your being offended at stuff, but whatever.

>It is never necessary to include rape,

Whoa now, when did I say that? I even pointed out western BL doesn't tend to have that at all, and I enjoy western works too.

So 4chan it hurts

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 04:54 (UTC) - Expand

Because you can't seem to see that when people read these things, they don't just say, "Oh this is rape fantasy, I know it's gross but it isn't real". They come in all, well, like you: "This isn't rape, it's romantic and ~tsundere~. He actually liked it, you see."

I've never read the canon myself, but if it's true that the character himself says it wasn't rape, then it isn't rape. That's not the reader making assumptions or justifying it, that's the character themselves coming out and stating that it was not in fact rape.

It doesn't work because, unlike real life, the readers have already been invited to witness the incident and draw their conclusion. The depiction gave them the clear impression that this is sexual assault, so having the character deny it after the fact isn't convincing.

But that's a common trope used in fiction in general. The author shows us (sometimes through the eyes of another character) a scene that looks a certain way with the intent of having the readers draw a particular conclusion about it, only to reveal later on that that particular conclusion is wrong.

It is my opinion that isn't what happened in this series, or else if that was the intent, then it was not well-presented enough to be persuasive.

That's a different matter entirely and also one highly subjective, as this thread proves.

Well duh, that's why I prefaced it with "in my opinion". I'm confident in my belief, and the fact that others in this thread agree with me.

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:40 (UTC) - Expand

DA

Except this is a trope that happens a lot in BL series. Something that is clearly sexual assualt or rape is either handwaved by the character saying it wasn't or saying that if the character enjoyed it then it wasn't rape.

Sounds like you can only accept your own vision. So much that not only you negate what the canon says, you also negate what other readers say.

There are quite a few people in this thread saying that what happened in Junjou was rape, so it seems that, at least in this corner of fandom, you're the only one who thinks otherwise. DA above hasn't read the series.

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 01:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 01:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:10 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:38 (UTC) - Expand

original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 01:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 01:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:34 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 21:02 (UTC) - Expand

Re: original DA

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 22:03 (UTC) - Expand

That doesn't make what the character says about themselves any less true.

In my opinion, the merit of the story does rely on whether you can convince your readers the action of your characters is consistent with past action. If the author did it badly, the author did it badly, and the readers aren't convinced.

But readers are convinced, or at least many are, or we wouldn't even be arguing now. So for all your trying to speak for everyone, you really aren't at all convincing yourself.

Your argument all hinges upon how the victim feels about the assault, without even considering the action of the aggressor. Whatever happened afterward, consent was not expressly given at the time. Why did he go ahead and do it?

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 02:49 (UTC) - Expand

da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-19 12:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-20 13:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: da

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-20 19:41 (UTC) - Expand

In Misaki's case, yes, that's exactly it.
But I'm still able to say that it's still a fantasy and most people are not Misaki, nor act or think the way he does. I don't mean it in a bad way either, since I admire how kind-hearted and selfless he is, but hey - he's still an anime character.

So if it's all just fantasy and none of it matters, then why are we having this conversation at all? Assuming you posted the secret, this is apparently supposed to be about your love for the characters and how you believe that the fact their relationship grew should negate what people believe to be an act of rape. Obviously, you care about people's perception of this series. The problem is that others really do think a) it was rape and b) the later development doesn't change squat. Are you now changing your argument to, "Okay but it's just fantasy, get over it"? Because that's a different conversation.

I'm not OP, but I love the series too, that's why I'm defending it obviously.

>The problem is that others really do think a) it was rape and b) the later development doesn't change squat.

Whatever then, I disagree and I stand my opinion. Guess we'll never be on the same page, either.

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