fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2577 ]

[ SECRET POST #2577 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2577 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Theresa Lopez-Fitzgerald-Crane, from the soap opera Passions]

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03.

[BBC Sherlock]

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04.

[Nobunaga the Fool]

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05.

[Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia from Star Wars]

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06.

[The Quick and the Dead]

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07.

[Nathan Fillion]

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08.

[Warehouse 13]

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10.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 030 secrets from Secret Submission Post #368.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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The story I'm working on it has two protagonists, siblings who's stories are both important. It's so integral to how the story goes that I can't imagine changing it, nor do I want to. I don't want to make one sibling more important than the other.

There's a part of me that feels sad at hearing this...but the rest of me that is approaching it as just like trying to right a really good crossover, or a really good story with OCs" . This is just another writing challenge.

Right..?

I like dual protagonists as a reader and I've written several. I wouldn't worry about it.

Thanks.

Any tips you could give? I already have a backstory and character arcs planned out for both of them that tie in and intersect with on another.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

sarillia - 2014-01-23 01:53 (UTC) - Expand

Same!

I think it depends on the reader. Some people don't do well with perspective switches or ensemble casts.

I'm confused. Is this fanfic or...?

Original novel.

I'm just saying that this poses a challenge, and since I was a fanfic writer I've always been seeking challenges.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 02:01 (UTC) - Expand

Not reccomended doesn't mean never do ever. Maybe it was just saying it's a difficult choice to write, not that you can't write it. It's your writing and you write what you want.

*nod* I read this article about it that was very pessimistic and like "you can choose to do it if you want...but it's probably going to fail" .

It both annoyed me and made me nervous.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

inkdust - 2014-01-23 02:01 (UTC) - Expand

As long as you make it obvious when you switch between storylines/POVs, and keep the story balanced between them, I see no problem at all in having dual protagonists. Actually, looking at my bookshelf, I'd say most of the stories I go back to again and again have multiple protagonists. There is far too much "writing advice" out there that boils down to "This is hard, therefore you should never attempt it." Don't listen to that.

Yeah I plan on doing that, writing with a third person style (ala the Harry Potter books) It mostly sticks to the siblings but occasionally shows tidbits with the antagonists to build tension.

I agree with that last bit. I seriously dislike that kind of advice because it feels like a cop-out. You can write anything wrong. That doesn't mean you should tell people to not write it. Laziest "writing advice" there is.

There is far too much "writing advice" out there that boils down to "This is hard, therefore you should never attempt it."

God, that gets on my nerves. Especially when it has that "LOL YOU CAN ONLY PULL THAT OFF IF YOU'RE GOOD. BUT YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF YOU'RE GOOD. ...IF YOU THINK YOU ARE YOU AREN'T!" thing going on. How are you supposed to know if you're allowed to write like that, again? :/

I call bullshit! You can't learn to do something right if you don't mess around with it!

What absolute tripe. Tamora Pierce's Circle of Magic series has four protagonists and it's great. That said, it depends on your writing skills; one protag's easier to maintain than two.

Hmmm I should check that out.

But I have a lot of planning and backstory and work involved in both including a clear character arc for both. I think I could maintain both certainly, since they're siblings. I know both of their stories , and well really managing them both isn't much of a problem for me. Giving them both backstory isn't a problem for me.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 05:34 (UTC) - Expand

I'd be curious to see what site told you that. Anyway, I'd be mindful to develop them fairly evenly (a pitfall of the dozens-of-POV-characters epic), but two should be fine.

Also, if you're not writing the story in English, disregard this. But if you are, consult some pages on English grammar, please. It was very difficult for me to parse the meaning of your comment on first read.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:46 (UTC) - Expand

What did you read that said that?

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

sarillia - 2014-01-23 02:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

inkdust - 2014-01-23 02:25 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:34 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

inkdust - 2014-01-23 02:39 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 02:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

darkmanifest - 2014-01-23 02:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 03:10 (UTC) - Expand

I'm a fan of fairly epic series, and I enjoy books/series with a bunch of "protagonists." It's harder to do *well*, since you're adding complexity, but it's certainly not something that never, ever works. Taking it as a challenge is definitely the way to go.

Some examples of multiple protagonist novels/series that I, personally, enjoyed:
Brandon Sanderson did it with 3 protagonist plotlines in Warbreaker (Siblings + a third guy) and Elantris (3 interweaving POV plotlines.)
Martin definitely has a bunch of protagonists in A Song of Ice and Fire, and I'm a big fan of those books. The first 3, in particular, do a really good job of integrating the various plotlines.
Timothy Zahn's novels pretty much always have 3-5 plots going on with different characters as the protagonist for each one, and they'll weave in and out of each other's stories.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

inkdust - 2014-01-23 02:30 (UTC) - Expand

Pft. What poppycock.

Now, if you're doing it in first person, that's a more difficult sell, but third person limited with multiple viewpoints is perfectly fine and done all the freaking time.

Don't worry about it.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

Huh? Is this a genre thing, maybe? Because I'm used to a lot of high/epic fantasy, and multiple protagonists are practically a staple of the genre. I mean, they may have a 'main' hero, but anything with a large cast that shares focus among them is going to have multiple POVs and protagonists going. Look at Lord of the Rings. Frodo is theoretically the main character, but after the first book we're also following Aragorn-Legolas-Gimli in one strand, Merry-plus-Rohirrim in another, Pippin-plus-Gondorians-plus-Gandalf in a third, and even in his own strand Frodo is sharing fairly evenly with Sam.

Then there's things like ASOIAF and Wheel of Time, where we have multiple POV 'protagonists' that are all on different sides, or in different factions of more or less the same side, or some other variations.

Now, there is a danger if you're trying to do multiple protagonists who are supposed to be getting equal weight, but in practice the author is giving most of the weight and sympathy only to one of them. The conflict between the half-brothers Arithon and Lysaer in Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow is one example I can think of that felt very uneven after the first book.

But generally? Have as many protagonists as you feel your story needs. Just be careful about where narrative weight is supposed to going versus where it's actually going, is all.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:57 (UTC) - Expand

The important thing to take away isn't that it's not recommended but to read WHY it's not recommended, and respond to that.

Lots of people will tell you not to do stuff in writing, or to do other stuff. That's fine. What you should pay attention to are their reasons for saying that, THEN you decide if they apply to you.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:37 (UTC) - Expand

Who said this and what gives them the absolute right to dictate what makes a good story?

If I can talk to you on a personal level for a second... Whenever I see you posting here about writing it makes me happy because it seems to me that you are at it every day. But it seems like you worry a lot about what random people who you will never meet think of your writing. They are not looking over your shoulder, and their complaints are petty and stupid anyway.

Just write your thing, jaybie_jarrett.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 02:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 03:04 (UTC) - Expand

I've been writing a story for a few years now, and it has two protagonists, but they appear in their own books. For example there's the first protag, which the first book is about. And then in the second one thingsarentwhattheyappearedtobelolcliche, and she learns why the stuff that happened in book one happened for/She has something to do+keep the second protag safe. Anddd then in the third one you meet the second protagonist and she has two books about her, then the last book loops around and ends the overarching plot threads. I was then told by someone that it was stupid to write something like that, when there's not much chance of getting one book published, let alone a series.

Which is true, but I kind of feel like I've wasted too much time on it now LOL.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 03:31 (UTC) - Expand

SA - forgot to add

(Anonymous) - 2014-01-23 03:33 (UTC) - Expand

There is no such thing as a bad narrative device. Only narrative devices that are more difficult to do well. If it's integral for the story, go for it.

Also, I think that idea is utterly fucking bogus, limiting, and unimaginative. I know plenty of dual protagonist stories that are perfectly good in their dual-ness. The idiot who wrote it must be a complete bore who needs every story to adhere to high school creative writing "rules" and Joseph Campbell. (By the way, there are also no such things as rules for good stories, only patterns that make it easier to make a story good.)

Ignore this boring fuck.

Most writing advice that says you should avoid doing xyz basically means if you can't do it well. Having dual protagonists is a challenge. Readers are mostly used to having only one protagonist and one main plot to care about, it might be tough dividing your energies to balance two plots that intertwine, etc. etc.

But the rule is that good writing trumps all. If you can pull it off, you should do it. And you won't know whether or not you can until you try. Just write, OP. You can take advice like that into consideration, but nothing is as important as writing what you want and finishing what you write.

Shitty writers giving shitty writing advice because they themselves struggle with something (or personally don't like it) yet you can find almost infinite examples of people doing the opposite and doing it well.

There was a "published" author on my LJ feed (indie erotica vanity press published, I mean) giving all kinds of "never do this" and "always do this" advice, and I got so sick of it I started to respond "well, actually, X author did that thing you said to never do and it was great, and X, Y, Z all didn't do that thing you said to always do and it was great" to which she responded "yes but you aren't as good as they are - I struggle with those myself".

...She's never read any of my writing. She just assumes everyone reading her "advice" is a worse writer than she is, and needs patronizing to-do lists. This guy is probably the same. There are metric shittons of books with dual or multiple protagonists that have sold more than this guy ever will.

Re: So I just read some stuff that "Dual Protagonists are not reccomended"

jaybie_jarrett - 2014-01-23 23:03 (UTC) - Expand

Read "Dead Six" by Larry Correia and Mike Kupari. It does the dual protag thing very well--and it's in first person, swapping back and forth.

Of course, they each wrote one character and Larry is a NYT bestselling author, so maybe he can get away with that kind of thing while the rest of us can't.

But there's nothing that says you shouldn't try.

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