[ SECRET POST #2584 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2584 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Danball Senki Wars]


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02.
[Harry Potter]


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03.
[Burn Notice]


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04.
[The Island of Doctor Moreau]


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05.
[Papers, Please]


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06.
[Star Trek: The Next Generation]


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07.
[Pretty Little Liars]


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08.
[KILL LA KILL]


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09.
[Labyrinth, The Hobbit]

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10.
[The Hobbit]


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11.
[The Hobbit]


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12.
[The Kiss of the Spider Woman]














Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 029 secrets from Secret Submission Post #369.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

Nope. Feminism is about everyone, and you're part of the problem if you think otherwise. The fact that women are more disadvantaged in some areas of our legal system and society gives them priority concern in those areas, but the areas where men are at a disadvantage (circumcision rights/myths/agenda, parenthood and rights to children, paternity leave, just to name a few) deserve equal attention and awareness if we want to address our problems as a whole.

You can't just prep half the ingredients and think you'll wind up with a whole meal, you know. Men are just as important as women in achieving an egalitarian culture.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

I actually think that most of the gender-related problems men face are still a result of misogyny. (Probably circumcision isn't, admittedly.) Work and behaviors that are considered to be feminine are devalued, and men who do those things are in turn looked down upon, because femininity itself, and anything seen as related to it, are devalued. For example, it's because there's been a widespread believe that "women ought to stay at home and take care of the children" that people think men shouldn't do so.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[sarillia]

Yeah. I definitely think that men's problems are serious and need to be fixed but it helps to acknowledge the source and most of them can be traced back to misogyny coming back around to bite men in the ass. Doesn't make the problems any less painful for the men who have to live with them but a problem can be solved more effectively when you acknowledge the cause.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Yup. The patriarchy hurts men too.

That's one of the reasons I think MRAs are so off-base. They tend to frame it as women vs. men, when most of the problems they complain about are more a matter of men vs. other men.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

I am a feminist and a woman, but I absolutely hate this rad!fem strategy as framing men as the only players in gender politics.

Women vs. men is far too simplified. It's sexism vs. equality (both sides can have men and women)

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

See below. tl;dr I completely agree with this estimate (it's why I call myself a feminist), but saying that men and men's issues aren't as important as women's issues is just way off base these days.

And that said, often times women are just as responsible for perpetuating patriarchal standards (especially with regard to how men are allowed to behave and present themselves) as men are.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

"it helps to acknowledge the source and most of them can be traced back to misogyny coming back around to bite men in the ass"

How exactly does it help, in our opinion? Other than to distribute blame, I can't see how this is a helpful attitude?

In my experience it seems like the way this point is brought up is used only to justify why issues pertaining to mens rights are not a problem for feminists. it's sits on the bingo card somewhere between "Victim Blaming" (It's their Own Fault)" and the age old "But X have to deal with this too" derailment tactic. (Brought up as an attempt to shift focus from the problem on to something that they actually care about) It doesn't matter who caused this problem and saying "women didn't do it to you" is, while technically accurate, utterly useless*. Focus on solving the problem, not on who started it.

That's just my 2p based on how I've seen this argument used. My original question was not a hypothetical, tho: How exactly does it help, in our opinion?

*I will say "Women didn't do it to you" is an adequate response to the people who say things like "Fucking feminists caused the situation with men getting screwed in marital court." Shifting blame back on to the patriarchy is a valid tactic when people are trying to shift blame onto the feminists, but in discussions like this it just seems to come off as rhetoric along the same lines we've all seem misogynists used.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Well, technically the current issues with the marital court (in the US, at least) were caused by feminists, but other then that, you have a point.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

How so?

I may be willing to concede that the overall lack of interest (from the majority of vocal feminists) in changing the situation may have lead to the unpleasant situation persisting, but how do you get to the answer "It's their fault?" Not saying you're wrong, per se, I just don't see it.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly. Men caused these problems, and now they want feminists to help fix them? I am not going to provide medical attention or sympathy to someone who punches themselves in the face while trying to hit me.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

okay. you're not a feminist. nor a decent human being, for that matter.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

What. I was born 30 years ago. Saying I "caused" a problem because I'm a man is about as absurd as saying a white 20 year old is responsible for slavery.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

The system is in your favor. Fix your shit without my scrap resources.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

well 3/10 I guess, since you made me reply.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

You just answered my question about why you are being an ass through all of this. You're a entitled guy.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

Notice I didn't bring up anything to do with misandry. I agree, those problems are the result of a misogynist traditionalism that's still present in culture and lawmaking, but changing our ideas about what's actually important in going forward is the only thing that's going to sustain efforts to reach true legal and cultural equality.

My point is that we as feminists absolutely need to acknowledge that men are just as important as women, and as a man my concerns are as valid as yours. To do otherwise just lends to the idea that feminists are nothing but man-haters and all we want to do is make women more powerful than men.

Like the OP, as a man I want to support you, and I acknowledge and feel deeply angry about the double-standards women face in society. I also absolutely know that in order for other men to accept that they need feminism, we also need to start tackling men's issues. Otherwise, you lose the hearts and minds that you worked so hard for in the first place.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, I am also a man. Just to clear that up.

And of course men and women are equally important, and men's concerns are valid. But they're not equally important in the feminist movement, because the feminist movement is not about men. Trying to make the feminist movement tackle men's issues seems kind of wrongheaded to me. Like, maybe we can let the women, who don't have as much privilege, focus on their own issues and not say, "pay attention to me too or I won't support you!!" Because we just do not have as many gender-related problems as women do. There is no pervasive anti-man sentiment in our society. We have the privilege here. Yeah, we have problems, but... trying to tell women feminists that they need to pay equal attention to men's problems seems to me akin to telling someone with a broken leg that they need to pay attention to your paper cut.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

(sa) actually, that last analogy was probably pretty shitty, ignore it. I can't figure out how to say things...

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

It doesn't actually matter what you are. Sorry if I made it seem like it does.

And I'm not saying it has anything to do with "pay attention to me or I won't support you", but it has everything to do with recognizing that true equality means equalizing everything, not just the things that are unfair to women. It has to do with recognizing that the best way to make feminism stronger is including men into the fight, and to include men into it you have to, you know, actually include us. Care just a little about the things that need to change for us as well.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Well... I guess I just figure feminism already (indirectly) does enough for men without necessarily having to focus on our problems specifically. idk.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's important to recognize that a lot of gender issues are interconnected - and tend to be based on forcing men and women both into roles, with women in the weak, devalued role. This men have to be strong, macho, etc.

That being said, getting too deep into social philosophy doesn't seem helpful to me. When many men and women both say that men can't be victims of rape or assault, and the male victims feel either that they are too ashamed to get help or that there aren't resources available to them, that's a problem whether or not we say that it's "sexism against men" or "sexism against women that affects men." If it's not fair that only men can get drafted into war, we could say it's because "women are weak and should stay at home", etc. But when the issue still has the men getting the short end of the stick, I don't know, it comes across as defensive on feminists' parts when everything is interpreted as actually being anti-women, and just.. unhelpful.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[herpymcderp]

+1 I was just going to get into this, but you beat me to it.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[nyxelestia]

For me, the draft is one of the funniest arguments MRAs can ever bring up around me. They try to use it as a symbol of how men get the short end of the stick there, and they expect me to get all defensive about it and have no clue what to do when I agree that the draft should be equal (in that either everyone should get drafted or - more preferably - no one should). I would think more feminists would go through the effort of explaining how the male-only draft is also the result of patriarchy, but considering how completely flummoxed these guys often end up, apparently not.

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

And I certainly get that the male-only draft is a result of "women can't be soldiers." Every advancement women make in the military, there's a hugely vocal group of anti-women men (and women, for that matter) that make it known how weak and incapable they think women are.

But I feel that, though that's true, men are still the victims of the draft. They are still, in this case, disadvantaged because of their gender. Whether we say it stems solely from the fact that women are believed to be weak, OR solely from the fact that men are expected to be macho and risk themselves... well, frankly, I'm not sure why we can't admit it's both, because it obviously is? My point is that I'm not saying elements of patriarchy and misogyny are not at play in virtually any gender issue, but gender stereotypes affect men negatively, too.

And it bothers me that some feminists try to make every problem men face, simply about how much men suck for contributing to a patriarchy or something. I say this as a woman and a feminist: society is sexist and mostly puts down women, but sexism affects men, too, and the goal of feminism should be eliminating all gender inequality. (Of course I am bothered more by men who try to claim their problems are as great as women's, but I'm assuming we're all basically feminists here)

Re: Feminism MRA and Men

[(Anonymous)]

Tell that to the men who think feminists need to fix men's problems in a culture they control to earn men as an ally for theirs.