[ SECRET POST #2730 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2730 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #390.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

02. http://i.imgur.com/MD1foJd.jpg

[kaijinscendre]

Maybe I was able to get a hold of assume never aired episodes but I recall many who were not about Buffy crying about some man.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but I think the OP's point is that she was basically never allowed to be single. It wasn't like Twilight, I'll grant you, but it is annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

Buffy had such terrible acting. I always cringe when I see that tumblr gifset circulating where SMG grabs a sword and opens her eyes. It's embarrassing to watch.

[dancing_clown]

Old wank is old.

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't this the same guy who said, "Happy people make for boring television"? He's not as bad as he could be (thank fuck for that), but the mark of a truly capable writer that is not.

[peablossom]

Whedon has plenty of issues, but Buffy sent plenty of time without angsting over the menfolk.

[(Anonymous)]

I think some of this might be that for its time (as weird as it feels to say that, given the "time" wasn't even twenty years ago), it was pretty feminist, whereas now you expect the female hero to be young, pretty and snarky. AND strong. She's Veronica Mars's mother and Kate Beckett's grandmother, essentially. So that's why I think it's a bit revolutionary. Whereas now we're like, okay great, she's snarky and strong and stuff, and yet half her plotlines are about which guy she's going to sleep with (or not be able to sleep with). I still think Buffy's feminist in many respects, for its time and after even still, but there's definitely issues.

[(Anonymous)]

...but none of the characters on any of his shows are all that emotionally healthy. You can probably count the ones who are on one hand and have fingers left over.

[mekkio]

Feminist or not, Whedon was and is a writer. And he wrote for a general audience that wanted Buffy with someone. Be it Angel, Spike, Riley or even Giles (Yes, there was a Team Giles.) It made for good television. A happy, independent, unattached character is hard to write for. A miserable, unstable, boyfriend revolving isn't.

[cushlamochree]

Far be it from me to defend Joss Whedon, but at least some of that is just the genre that Buffy was in, isn't it? I mean, doesn't everyone in that show spend a lot of time angsting and dealing with relationship drama? If you're going to combine teen soaps with kick-butt action, you're going to end up with some emotional drama.

In fairness

[(Anonymous)]

There was her whole "cookie dough" speech at the end of the last season. Having gotten through all the adolescent relationship stuff,she *did* realize that she needed some time on her own to figure out herself.

Also

[(Anonymous)]

Even if you don't think Joss Whedon's work is very feminist, you have to give him credit for what he's done to support Equality Now and the opportunities he's given women to be writers and showrunners.

[kallanda_lee]

You know what? Whedon has his flaws, but I like Buffy, and I liked her relationships.

She showed a perfectly normal teen interest in guys, but over time you could also see that the relationships she ended up in were not always good, because she was an inherently flawed human.

I thought her killing Angel despite him getting his soul back was a really powerful moment. I liked that with Riley, it showed that even with a human a relationship could be bad and based on lies. And I liked that with Spike it was basically two broken people seeking comfort with each other.

In short, I liked that it made her human. It wasn't over-romanticized like Twilight or whatever teen novel du jour. No, it was genuinely messy sometimes. She lost loved ones, and still stayed strong.

Just because you do not need a man doesn't mean you can't one one, doesn't mean you can't crave to be loved and to connect on that level with an other being. And I think Buffy did fairly well on that.

[silverr]

Uh ... season 7? She dates a little but she's not in a "relationship." (Being "single and independent" does not preclude being friends with men. Or even some FWB now and again.)

She even tells the supposed "love of her life" that she's not "done" becoming herself yet, and therefore isn't thinking of who she'd wind up with.

[fingalsanteater]

You must have been watching a different show that I was because when I think about Buffy I never even think about her romances. They didn't define her character, in my opinion.

[fauxkaren]

Not only that, but the way he's treated other female characters.

In spite of all that I love Buffy Summers so much and she rates as one of my all time favorite characters.

[(Anonymous)]

Does the entirety of season 5 except that one episode in the middle of the season when she breaks up with Riley (that she got over by the next episode) count as "a couple of episodes"?

[(Anonymous)]

Guys can't be feminists. At most they're allies. Don't let them co-opt our movement.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, fuck off. You're the sort that makes women hesitant to identify as feminists. Newsflash: most women want to be involved in a romantic relationship. Most men want to be involved in a romantic relationship too. A good 90% of all entertainment is about romantic relationships. Even super macho movies often have the hero's need to save his love interest as the driving motive.

[gabzillaz]

Joss "i made a woman's life hell because she got pregnant" Whedon? A feminist?

[darkmanifest]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if Whedon himself was feminist, but if the show itself was feminist. For its time and the inroads it made for leading female action/adventure characters in popular culture, hell, yeah, it was. Whedon's attitude about some things that led to everyone on the show having one fucked up romance after another - "happy people make for boring characters" - were less about feminism and more about dude's weird hangups, which all writers have.

[(Anonymous)]

I am very comfortable saying that I fully believe Joss Whedon is a feminist.

There is no "but" following that sentence.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm really confused as to why we're focusing solely on Buffy being batty over relationships. Angel and Spike, pictured, spend most of their time mooning over a girl. Spike is hopeless about women, and Angel's EVERYTHING is literally defined by sex robbing him of a soul. I could write paragraphs on how thoroughly they are defined by their romantic relationships.

I don't understand this weird double standard. It's the same business with his cruelty to female characters. What shows are you watching that the men aren't equally as fucked? I don't think anything any woman has gone through on a single one of his shows can hold a candle to how fucked up Connor was. It's like.. all right. There's a whole episode of Angel about misogyny in human form-- in the end, it's women who come out on top, strong. And there's Wesley weeping behind a door because he tried to murder the woman he loved.

In my opinion, Whedon should cool it on the wanton torture of his characters. But for every Tara there's a Doyle [who was 'fridged' to further the character of Cordelia] and for every Fred there's a Wash [who was killed for.. what was that reason again? ah. show cancelled, gotcha]. What about Book? We didn't even get to see him die. Can you imagine if.. say... Jenny Calendar was murdered off screen? Distant neck-snap, body discovered later. As an aside, anyone remember how Jenny's death was such a blow to Giles that he marched off to war and was nearly tortured to death..

Of course there's a billion and one feminists who are going to try and explain why the women being killed is worse. Probably the same people who bitch about the misogyny on SPN, completely ignoring the gigantic male death count. Those same people can explain to me how Buffy's relationships are more of a focal point than Angel's relationships. Spike's. Xander's. Etc. Etc. Blah blah blah.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm really confused as to why we're focusing solely on Buffy being batty over relationships. Angel and Spike, pictured, spend most of their time mooning over a girl. Spike is hopeless about women, and Angel's EVERYTHING is literally defined by sex robbing him of a soul. I could write paragraphs on how thoroughly they are defined by their romantic relationships.

I don't understand this weird double standard. It's the same business with his cruelty to female characters. What shows are you watching that the men aren't equally as fucked? I don't think anything any woman has gone through on a single one of his shows can hold a candle to how fucked up Connor was. It's like.. all right. There's a whole episode of Angel about misogyny in human form-- in the end, it's women who come out on top, strong. And there's Wesley weeping behind a door because he tried to murder the woman he loved.

In my opinion, Whedon should cool it on the wanton torture of his characters. But for every Tara there's a Doyle [who was 'fridged' to further the character of Cordelia] and for every Fred there's a Wash [who was killed for.. what was that reason again? ah. show cancelled, gotcha]. What about Book? We didn't even get to see him die. Can you imagine if.. say... Jenny Calendar was murdered off screen? Distant neck-snap, body discovered later. As an aside, anyone remember how Jenny's death was such a blow to Giles that he marched off to war and was nearly tortured to death..

Of course there's a billion and one feminists who are going to try and explain why the women being killed is worse. Probably the same people who bitch about the misogyny on SPN, completely ignoring the gigantic male death count. Those same people can explain to me how Buffy's relationships are more of a focal point than Angel's relationships. Spike's. Xander's. Etc. Etc. Blah blah blah.