fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2867 ]

[ SECRET POST #2867 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2867 ⌋

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It's not really a fair comparison though. Because at least for the Kirk and Spock relationship, the reboot writers are copying good writers there so there's occasionally some quality material that appears.

Whereas since they wrote the Spock/Uhura romance from the ground up, it just doesn't work due to their incompetence.

This is sadly true. The reboot writers couldn't write a well done relationship on their own to save themselves.

I disagree. I think Spock/Uhura was the best thing about the reboots, and the only reason I keep watching the films now.

That, and the new actor who plays McCoy. He's great.

I really despise the way Spock treats Uhura. His disrespect for her wishes and how unfazed he is when she is in danger really bother me. But to each their own.

At least he didn't try to break her neck nor used the death of her father to humiliate her in front of the whole academy
Good thing, also, that he didn't need to see her dying to have feelings for her.

Really, Kirk has abusive relationships in his past due to his uncle being really bad, the fact that he seeks the approvation and friendship of Spock only b/c Spock Prime told them they would be friends rubs me in the wrong way. Wtf is wrong with him? He doesn't even like Spock and he could have all the friendship he wants from any of the other crew members

Yeah, I hate Spock in the 2009 film. He's a lot better in STID.

That's one reason I never understood why Uhura's with him -- she really likes this asshole that brings up a dead student's father, chokes his first officer (and DOESN'T apologize), almost fucks over her career, etc.?

I mean, if they'd written the relationship in STID, I could see it because Spock seems a lot nicer in that film -- caring about the crew and not antagonizing anyone. But in the 2009 film? Hell to the no.

I can see why Kirk would want to be friends with Spock, though. Spock is smart and when they team up, they manage to take down Nero. And I think Kirk respects that -- as does Spock. They certainly don't like each other much in the first film, but I think they bring out the best in one another -- the scene where Kirk sacrifices himself and Spock confesses that the trick he pulled on Harrison -- those were inspired by each other. Or when Kirk decides not to kill Harrison because of what Spock says. Or when Kirk goes back for Spock and helps to teach him what friendship and loyalty mean.

But I definitely think Kirk/Spock is a ship that only works post-Into Darkness where Spock's become less of a raging asshole and Kirk has grown up a bit.

Da

Sorry, but I don't think that Kirk needs Spock and viceversa. I struggle to comprehend where Spock actually proved to be someone worth to have as a friend or where Kirk gave Spock a reason to see friendship. How they can be more friends than others on that ship? The fact that they are called Kirk and Spock is not enough for me. Lets be real here.
Would they even care to try it if Spock Prime hadn't influenced them telling them they would be friends? Honest. Would you try to seek friendship in their place? They disliked each other and are such opposites.
Friendship is what I have with my friends and nothing about them is relatable to me. I have better relationships with my co-workers!
Spock was emotionally compromised after what happened to him and everything Kirk cared about was how HE felt. he was racist with Spock. He didn't like him why bother trying to get friendship from him? It's like a girl actively seeking abusive relationships. Why should Spock consider him a friend btw? What he did to deserve the word? Because he saved him? The whole crew did that just like the whole crew saved Kirk in the end, not just Spock. The whole crew cared about them both.
They are co-workers and not that great as a team either but I give them a pass on that. But in private? I don't remember them getting to know each other or Kirk asking Spock if he needed someone to talk with after the tragedy that had just happened to him.

These two individuals are troubled on their own and need a friend but clearly the other can't furfill that role yet because they are both a mess.
I think the writers should develop them more separately first before making them friends, too. They are too complex for their backstory to get ignored just because you have to make them friends so fast and expect the audience to buy it and give you a free pass when it is ooc and not half realistic.

They don't need each other. Don't know where I said they did. But the films show how they complement each other and make each other better. They clearly have to learn to temper their first impressions and see what the other has to offer (since their world views and approaches are different) but it's not surprising that they see something valuable and worth embracing in each other.

Spock Prime convinced Spock to stay on the Enterprise. However, Kirk is the one who taught him that the rules aren't everything (when he goes to save him) and that you need to play on your enemies weaknesses (when he uses the torpedoes against Harrison). Similarly, Spock taught Kirk about taking responsibility and to be able to set aside his emotion and see the morality/immorality of his actions.

That is no small thing and I can definitely see how it brings them closer together. They influence each other deeply.

That they recognize what the other would have done (correctly) at the end of the film is a testament to that.

In both their cases, I wouldn't mind more development, but I can certainly say that I think they're far more developed than any of the other characters.

At very least, the Kirk and Spock relationship has an outline to go by. Which is more than I can say for much of anything else in the reboots, unfortunately.

They don't need each other. Don't know where I said they did. But the films show how they complement each other and make each other better.

_____

Complement each other doesn't mean, in a way, they need each other? They just don't.
Like in the last movie I don't get why Spock is not the captain when he is so better and more competent anyway but that's me.
Kirk can have better friends in McCoy, Scotty, Uhura or Pike, his mentor. He has nothing to do with Spock and Spock has nothing to do with him.
To say that they make each other better too....Kirk seems to bring the worst in him, actually, when he doesn't look like Sylar he's reduced to a parody of himself just to pay homage to a scene that these characters haven't earned one bit. He's out of character.
It seems irony that you claim they make each other better when some of their worst moments in the movies where they act as an immature ass is the scenes they have with each other.
They should have asked for a transfer.

Re: Blown out the water by Spock/Uhura!

(Anonymous) - 2014-11-09 12:28 (UTC) - Expand

That's one reason I never understood why Uhura's with him -- she really likes this asshole that brings up a dead student's father, chokes his first officer (and DOESN'T apologize), almost fucks over her career, etc.?
So, you think Uhura shouldn't be with Spock because he was mean with Kirk, but you think it's totally normal for Kirk to pursue a relationship with the man who tried to kill him, and made him lose his ship because he ungratefully reported him after he saved his life.
Well...well...

In the 2009 film? Hell yeah it's fucking awful.

If they'd waited to get them together until STID? I'd be fine with it. It wouldn't be a problem then because Spock has progressed a lot. I'm not surprised -- losing his planet and his mother changed him and forced him to grow up in a lot of ways. In some ways he was worse (his emotional repression) but in a lot of ways he improved because he's not stepping all over people's feelings any more and he learned to really look out for and care for the crew.

So, yeah, I'd be okay with writing Spock in a relationship post-STID considering how much he's grown. With 2009 Spock, though, it makes no sense.

In my opinion.

Put aside the whole Spock and Kirk thing for a second. Would YOU wanna be in a relationship with someone who treated people like that? I sure wouldn't, especially since there's no guarantee that person isn't going to treat ME that way.

DA

I feel like you're both too easily giving Kirk a free pass, though.
For one, he was wrong for cheating the test and he compromised the simulation for the other cadets. What if they could take part to only one simulation? Kirk then ruined an academy test for them all with consequences that could affect their curriculum. Spock was in his rights to call him out on that the way the academy protocol required him to do: in public.
Yes, the thing about his father was bad but no one in the room would think that Spock, a vulcan, mentioned that to be gratuitously mean. He did have a point and was trying, albeit coldly, to make him understand why he didn't get the purpose of the test.

Kirk is constantly insubordinate with his superior officers and he isn't really likable with Spock either so at the very least the feeling was mutual from both parts.
Spock was wrong for attacking him but don't forget that Kirk did provoke him. Why you think no one tried to stop them? Even McCoy, his best friend, didn't side with him there.
Screaming in Spock's face that he didn't love his mother that he had JUST watched die without being able to help her was despicable from krik's part, moreso because he did that to steal the captain's chair from him when Spock still was the more competent officer for that role. None of the people in that room could know about Kirk's reasons or that he had talked with Spock prime, for what they knew Kirk just took advantage of a tragedy for his own ego and because he couldn't stand Spock. And they lost another captain and had the insubordinate cocky cadet takes his place while earth was in danger.

Re: Blown out the water by Spock/Uhura!

(Anonymous) - 2014-11-09 18:10 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Blown out the water by Spock/Uhura!

(Anonymous) - 2014-11-09 22:19 (UTC) - Expand

It's a sad commentary about how terrible the new movies are that someone's only sticking around for a ship. The philosophy…the friendship…the possibilities of science…great writing? All gone.

Agreed on the new actor for McCoy -- he is great. Though I don't attribute that to the writers in the slightest considering Karl Urban is a huge fan of TOS and a great actor even in the most godawful movies.

Nu McCoy is fabulous, and he is terribly underutilized. Hardly had anything to do in the second film.

Same! I didn't expect to love them so much but I do. They are so sweet and très jolie!

Karl Urban is great indeed. I'm so bummed they canceled his show :'( great chemistry with Michael Ealy.

I found the spirk fan, lol

Even in a secret that doesn't mention other characters and ships you guys have to bait shipper wars.

Kirk/McCoy ftw, btw

But any relationship not influenced by destiny or Spock prime and shit is better than kirk/spock
At least they are unporedictable and original.

It's just a damn shame Spock/Uhura couldn't have happened in TOS or with the TOS writers who were far superior. Leonard and Nichelle had a great dynamic too.

But I disagree with you on "destiny" or Spock prime -- never really liked that aspect. I think the best thing Kirk/Spock has going for it is Pine and Quinto's great chemistry and the fact that the writers have clearly superior writers (from TOS) to draw from when writing their relationship.

Although I do like Kirk/McCoy in the new films as well. That probably benefits from Urban being a HUGE TOS fan and drawing from Kelley.

And it'd be interesting to see what Saldana and Quinto could do with better material from better writers but…well…they're kind of stuck there, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, something being unpredictable and original doesn't make it better.

Especially because in the reboots, unpredictable means "comes out of nowhere and makes no sense with no build up."

While original means the writers can't rely on TOS for support and thus it sucks completely since they're doing it on their own. And they don't have a the writing ability to pull anything off better than freaking Transformers.

"Especially because in the reboots, unpredictable means "comes out of nowhere and makes no sense with no build up."

You described the reason why OP dislikes k/s

Except…K/S isn't canon. The reboots show how they go from disliking each other to grudging respect to friendship. Which gives it a lot more leeway than something like the canon relationship of Spock and Uhura which the writers couldn't even be bothered to develop. Just stuck them together to advance Spock's emotional development supposedly.

Nonsense. They're both relationships and both criticized for the same reason here:bad writing.
Romance isn't the only kind of relationship that can be badly written. And the k/s friendship is the main thing in these movies, unlike s/u, the fact that their friendship has no build up and sucks overal is more serious and worse because the writers have all the screentime and chances to do well with them, but they just don't.

Maybe you think it's bad writing -- you're entitled to that opinion.

And I'll agree that it's not perfect by any stretch.

But, from where I'm standing, it's far and away the best written aspect of the reboot films which, as I've said, I believe is precisely because they can rely on TOS so much. And TOS had much, much better writers.

I think their relationship has the best build up in the new films. We see them go from dislike, to being forced to work together and developing respect and tolerance of one's abilities, to caring about one another as members of the crew, to deeply understanding one another's thought processes and becoming friends. In my opinion, that's a well-developed arc.

It's certainly a TON more than Spock and Uhura who are just together from the get-go (with no explanation, no scenes of them falling in love or even just being friends first) even when Spock is acting like a tool.

That's my opinion.

Re: Still better than Spock/Uhura

(Anonymous) - 2014-11-10 22:45 (UTC) - Expand

There is no comparision indeed because you compare apples and oranges.
The romance is a secondary subplot. You could compare it to Kirk/McCoy if you want, but not k/s.
S/u is not the be all and end all of the story for the writers. They don't get together in the movies either because they already are an item when the story is told. I'm sure you have watched other movies or tv-shows with romantic subplots, you can't say that you knew everything about Sarek/Amanda either.
The romance in these movies takes 5 minutes of screentime in each movie and when compared to similar movies, the writers do it, surprisingly, well with so little screentime.

Kirk and Spock, on the other hand, are the story for the writers. They are the main characters and get most of the screentime at the expense even of their own story as individuals (do you know Kirk's uncle was abusive and his childhood was shit?) so there is no excuse for the writers because they have plenty of chances to make them great and they just don't.
They have all the screentime and yet, it feels like a token friendship. We only care because of the name of the characters and use TOS to explain a dynamic b/w different characters.

Bashing other relationships, especially those that are secondary, to justify the flaws in k/s is stupid.

"they're already an item when the story is told" -- and that's a big problem because they never explain how and why someone with Spock's emotional hangups would be able to accept having a significant other. This is a man who came to understand what friendship meant in the sequel (STID -- according to Quinto at least) so how in the world is he ready for a girlfriend?

And, actually, the 2009 film does a terrible job. Look at something like Captain America: The First Avenger. Steve does not have Spock's hang ups about emotion and love for one. AND, they show us WHY Steve and Peggy like each other. Steve likes her spirit (look at how she smiles when she punches the man insulting her) but, more importantly, they know what it's like to have been denied opportunities because of how they were born. Peggy mentions it in the car for example. This film does a much, much better job of showing how/why they fell in love with each other. We at least see a PROGRESSION over the film. It's not just BOOM, they're together for reasons. Side pairings like Sarek/Amanda I'm more forgiving of because neither of them are the main character. But Spock and Steve are both main characters so there's no excuse there.

Kirk and Spock's story, in my opinion, is the most interesting and compelling part of the new films. It's also has some well written moments when the writers are drawing form TOS.

If you think criticism of an element that didn't work for you is "stupid" you're welcome to hold that opinion. I don't. Feel free to criticize the K/S relationship. Like I said, I may even agree with some of your points (like that it relies too much on the TOS relationship). However, overall, my opinion stands.

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