[ SECRET POST #477 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

35

[(Anonymous)]

Not the OP, but why do you think she's not a Mary Sue 0__0 I'm not trying to start some big, wanky debate or anything, but I'm honestly curious.

Re: 35

[pikabot]

What on earth MAKES her a Mary Sue? I can't think of any Sue features about her.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Really? Well, her appearance for one. The eyes, hair, and outfit just scream Sue to me. Second, she has a tragic backstory where she was abandoned for no apparent reason. Oh, yea, and she's also a princess. She has this peaceful, kind-hearted, trusting, sheltered persona and never harbors any ill feelings towards anyone, even when she has a reason to. The ENTIRE main cast also loves within a few episodes.

One or two of these qualities wouldn't necessarily make her a Sue, but it's the COMBINATION of these traits that makes her one, IMO.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, so we can say that, for the sake of argument, her upbringing/genetic basis was the reason she trusted all the humans right away, despite being told they were "evil" since birth. She was born to be a faithful little sheep. Okay.

But...that doesn't make up for the fact that it took her less than half an episode to get over being thrown away, and never really thought about it again. Or that instead of being mad, she confronted her father/creator about "humans not being all that bad".

Or the fact that she hacked into the fucking computer system to project a hologram of herself and stop a bunch of people she'd never met from smashing themselves against the city.

Or that she singlehandedly made everyone stop angsting over Kamina.

And did you see the beach episode? They MADE her a Sue. They parodied it! Best at sports, lovely in a bathing suit. WTF?

She is a Mary Sue of the ninth degree. Hell, even her DEATH way Sue-ish. "OMG, SHE'S AMAZING! Hung on longer than any Spiral messenger evaomg1111!"

Re: 35

[pikabot]

...wow, none of that happened. The confrontation with her father was about her wanting to understand why he was doing what he wanted to eliminate the humans, it wasn't about humans 'not being that bad'. She couldn't understand why he father would do all the things that he did.

She didn't hack anything. She projected that holographic image using equipment onboard the Dai-Gurren, no doubt salvaged from their confrontation with Guame.

She didn't make a single person stop angsting about Kamina. I don't even know where you're getting this from. She asked some questions that helped Simon, and only Simon, move on, but most of the work was done by digging his way out and Lagann.

Basicaly, by your criteria, any female character who comes along partway into the show and distinguishes herself in any way is a Sue. GTFO, you fail.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

OP here.

First off, the screamingly obvious "everyone loves her within a few episodes" bit. Not a single person there managed to hold a grudge against her. Interesting, for a cast full of characters with major flaws.

And speaking of flaws, what WAS hers? Seriously. Unless you count being trusting to a fault and later her little heritage problem. In a cast of characters who are all incredibly imperfect, her biggest problem is that she's evil. Her body is flawless, she's skilled in everything (as the snarky person up there said, that was even featured), and she harbors absolutely no ill will to anyone. Unless you count that she's the ONLY one in the entire series, man, beastman or demigod, that doesn't have one. Even being entirely too trusting could have counted, if it had even ONCE bitten her in the ass. Kamina's flaw killed him, Simon's flaw tore him apart, Viral's flaws got other people killed/caused the loss of a major battle. Nia's flaw? Got her molested by a creepy old armadillo for the sake of plot exposition. And thrown out like yesterday's garbage. But that impacted her about as much as a mosquito bite. Special skill, that.

Regarding the holograph, I agree on both counts. Image projection isn't as hard as if she'd done something more fancy, but it still seems like it might be a bit out of her range. Genome was not big on imparting knowledge that wasn't absolutely necessary. If I recall, the characters in that scene were Nia and the two kids from Rossieu's village, so it's not like she could have received technical advice. She also stopped the soldiers from smashing themselves to death, as a complete stranger and a beastman. Not entirely logical.

Give me a proper character flaw, and I'll concur that she's not a Sue.

Re: 35

[pikabot]

You're forgetting that the one who was running the projector was Old Coco, who could very easily have the knowledge of how too go about doing that. And she stopped them smashing themselves because she was the only signal that could get through to them to tell them to stop and let Simon take care of bidness.

I don't see how it's sue-ish that people like her when she hasn't done anything to make them NOT like her. The Dai-Gurren Brigade seems like a pretty open group to me, and they were never given a reason to dislike her.

A flaw? How about her naivete? Her lack of understanding of the outside world? Her inability to cook? Just because it doesn't get people killed, doesn't mean it isn't a character flaw. Hell, her naivete very nearly did get her killed against Adiane.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

A different anon, but Nia was the daughter of the man who essentially caused all their problems. That alone is enough to warrent some dislike from the Dai-Gurren Brigade. Of course, when they realize that she's a good person they would probably accept her, but in the show their hesitation lasted for a grand total of five minutes before they all started to fawn over her and her cuteness.

Naivite and innocence are common sue traits. They are not real personality flaws per say, but aspects that even make her MORE liked by the cast. And the lack of cooking ability is just an anime running gag. It's not meant to be taken seriously at all.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

How is "idiotically brave", Kamina, a true flaw? How is "extremely honorable", Viral, a true flaw? Really, Nia's naiveté flaw is as valid as any flaw from "larger-than-life" fiction in the line of the already stated Gurren-Lagann, One Piece or similar shows. They're likable flaws, that's the whole point.

And why would the Gurren-Dan hold a grunge against Nia when she earned their respect standing unarmed against Adiane for their sake? Not to mention they all heard Genome abandoned her.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Just out of idle curiosity, what's your definition of a Sue? Because if we both have different definitions this whole debate is going to be pointless.

I'm not saying that the Gurren-Dan should have held a grudge, but they at least should have been a bit hesitant before fawning over her like she's the greatest/most adorable thing on the whole planet.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Why would they be hesitant when they all heard Genome heartlessly abandoned her and Adiane, the enemy, almost killed her? The Gurren-Dan are not the kind of people to hold a grunge, this would go against their entire philosophy.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

They are open, friendly people, that much is true. But for EVERYONE to suddenly love Nia within the span of a few minutes so soon after Kamina's death did nothing to weaken the whole "Nia is a Sue" argument. Like one anon said above, it was the combination of her many qualities that made her a Sue, not simply one or two.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: Why would they hate Nia due to Kamina's death? They didn't show any "love" for Nia until episode 12, which happened weeks after episode, in which she earned their respect.

Second: Which qualities? Which quality actually stands-out among the Gurren-Lagann larger-than-life cast?

Third: She is not a Sue. You think she is a Sue. Different things.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: I never said they should hate Nia, just that they should have shown more uncertainty before fawning after her like in the beach episode.

Second: The typical sueish qualities of : 1. Being a princess. 2. Tragic backstory. 3. Her physical appearance. 4. Having the magnetic ability to make almost everyone she comes in contact with love her. 5. Heroic sacrifice at the end. It's the combination of them that makes her one, IMO.

Third: She is a Sue. You think she is not one. That is why I asked you before what your definition of a Sue is, because the criteria for what makes one has become so skewed over the years and we clearly have different ideas of what makes one.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

First: The same group of people that foolishly walked into an obvious trap by Guame and later the Anti-Spiral show uncertainty? Really? They just follow their heart.

Second: Those are not "Sue" traits, those are shoujo heroine traits. Besides... since when is a "tragic backstory" a Mary Sue trait? Not to mention every single main character that died in Gurren-Lagann did so in a sacrificial, heroic fashion. You're grasping at straws in here.

Third: What is a Mary Sue for you? A larger-than-life female character?

Re: 35

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

I'm just an idle passer-by that haven't even seen the anime, but I simply must comment; her inability to cook? It's classic! It's the one "flaw" that always, always is tacked on to characters that are a bit too perfect. Usually it doesn't work as a flaw, since it tends to be presented as cute (also, it's a skill, not a trait).

But really, I haven't seen the series. She might be a lovely character for all I know. It's just... that particular "flaw" is almost- no, not almost. It is one of the more famous clichés out there.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

It's really not inability to cook but entire lack of any practical skills. But like you said, it's a skill.

And really, character flaws are something pretty overrated. Their only intention is to drive the plot and make you sympathetic to a character, which would make them Mary Sue by definition. Characters are created for people to like them, their "flaws" are intended to make them likable. Honestly, people...

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

So essentially you're saying you want perfect characters? Flaws are what give characters depth and development. They are pretty much necessary for conflict and a good story. If there were no character flaws, then how interesting would the story actually be?

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

No, read my post again. She's saying "flaws" that make a character likable are not "flaws" and I disagreed since "flaws" are in the first place only intended to make character likable, the only real purpose of "depth and development" is to generate empathy with the spectator, and to drive the plot/action.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Not all flaws are intended to make a character likable. For example, Shinji from Evangelion is extremely insecure, timid, and doesn't do well under pressure. His flaws are a major hinderance to the people around him, and they make most members of the audience more irritated at him than sympathetic. I can see how some characters have flaws to make them likable (ex. Nia and Kamina) but that certainly does not apply to everyone.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Seeing Shinji being an extremely popular character at Japanese magazines' polls I would say his flaws indeed made him likable.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

It shouldn't be a surprise that the Western and Eastern fanbases are different. How many people here do you actually think like him? Another character with flaws is Chibiusa from Sailor Moon, who is bratty and immature but eventually grows up. I can't speak for the Eastern fanbase, but she's pretty hated in the West. Don't make generalizations such as "every character has flaws to make them likable". There are almost always exceptions to every rule.

Re: 35

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Actually, Shinji is pretty popular here in Sweden as well.

I don't think character flaws are there to make characters popular, but to male them more human and easier to relate to. When an author loves a character too much to give them a "real" flaw, i.e. something that might actually be detrimental to them in some way, I'd say the border of Sueland is being breached.

Otherwise, the only clear examples of Sues tend to be when the character bends reality. That is, when a character can somehow work outside the laws of the canon they're in, and/or causes extremely uncharacteristic behaviour in other characters.

The only examples I've run into in published fiction are Anita Blake in Laurell Hamilton's series (though she didn't start out as a Sue), and the female lead in Elizabeth Hayden's "Rhapsody" series. People really are overly prone to call characters Sues when they simply don't like them.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Except, you know, Kamina's "character flaw" failed to kill him. He was always saved by Simon, just like Nia. Kamina died due to Simon's weakness, his own personality had nothing to do with it.

Re: 35

[(Anonymous)]

Gurren-Lagann is not a show full of characters with major flaws. They're all light-hearted and quirky, all of them are a representation of a single idea and the only thing holding them together is the fact that they are fighting for their own identity. But no, they're not "flawed characters". I find your whole rant illogical and unfair. Kamina's flaw wasn't what killed him, Kamina's flaw was always lampshaded by Simon's strength. Kamina died due to back luck, due to being on the wrong place at the wrong time. That's all there is to it. He wasn't killed due to his bravado or due to lacking care... why would they expect Thymilph machine to attack so suddenly with such a strong weapon? Viral's flaw never got anyone killed, unless you consider being "weak" a flaw rather than the lack of a skill.

How you say "being molested by a creepy old armadillo" was only for the sake of plot exposition is also a selective and biased use of adjectives. By such logic Kamina was only killed for plot development, Viral's struggle when questioning the nature of beastmen was also merely plot exposition, Rossiu's growing to be like the priest in his village was only theme delivery and I could go on with plenty of different stories. About why it failed to affect Nia... she was affected, she would have stayed heavily depressed if it wasn't for Simon. You're overlooking the reason their relationship became the core of the second, and later fourth, arcs... because they helped each other.