[ SECRET POST #540 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #540 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 400 secrets from Secret Submission Post #078.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - internet scientist ], [ 1 - person lost the game ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

118. Anyone who doesn't has no soul, obviously. What would your team be?

121. Riku goes gangsta, Kairi gets a keyblade way too late, the villain gives a speech about DARKNSES and then you kick the shit out of a zebra.

There, now you don't have to finish it!

122. That really fucking sucks and I do sympathize.

143. Anything can be made into a religion. It's kind of annoying that you use Scientology as an example of ridiculous beliefs. What about the Bible?

[llivla.livejournal.com]

121. That is disturbingly accurate. Except DARKNSES probably needs to be about 20348273x bigger. :3

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

143

[j-a-lie.livejournal.com]

Because Scientology is ridiculous. It's public knowledge that Hubbard was just using it as a scam.

(Although I will concede that unless people have the same faith they are likely to see other beliefs that are not theirs as ridiculous.)\

Now I'm curious as to why you suggest the Bible.

Re: 143

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

I suggest the Bible because it's similarly ridiculous, except people don't think so because of the passage of time. It's just as fantastical and lacks just as much substantial evidence, but it's acceptable to believe in it because many people do and many people have for a long time. I don't like seeing Scientology criticized by people who are unwilling to examine other belief systems and call them out on the same thing - I think it's unfair and intellectually dishonest to do so.

Re: 143

[j-a-lie.livejournal.com]

With no intention to attack you personally, then what does qualify as something to believe in? Aside from proven facts or empirical evidences?

I will say that I believe (and others that I know) in the Bible because not so much as other people have done so as something (...well, God) calls us to it, feels moved, etc., but what have you. Faith is tricky.

I was about to say that Scientology does prove to be insane given the church, but then that's the church. It's probably like saying Christianity is insane because of the Holy Crusade and all that, isn't it?

Re: 143

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

With no intention to attack you personally, then what does qualify as something to believe in? Aside from proven facts or empirical evidences?

The belief systems themselves. The spirit rather than the letter of the law, in the case of holy books. The fantastical stories should be secondary to their message, and the message should be consistent and reasonable. I think beliefs that are supported only by "ridiculous" stories should be discarded - for example, belief in creationism over evolution.

I was about to say that Scientology does prove to be insane given the church, but then that's the church. It's probably like saying Christianity is insane because of the Holy Crusade and all that, isn't it?

Bingo.

Re: 143

[poisontea.livejournal.com]

what does qualify as something to believe in? Aside from proven facts or empirical evidences?

Sorry to jump in, but I have to say that's... pretty much it, yeah. Why should you believe in something that has no evidence? Yes, you say that "something (...well, God) calls us to it, feels moved, etc." but that can't be enough in and of itself. If that were the case, anyone who felt called by the fairies who live in the clouds to believea and worship in them because they just "know it's true" would be considered sane, and I bet I can guess your opinion on someone who seriously started going on about that.

If you feel called to believe something, that's wanting to believe it, and that's okay. But that's where you start looking for reasons to believe it. It's a theory, not a fact. And if nothing at all helps hold it up- if in fact there is evidence against it, looking at the original scriptures shows clearly that it's a biproduct of a very primative, not-very-nice society that wasn't even monotheistic at first, and it's not difficult to see where every myth in the Abrahamic belief system comes from (El (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28god%29), his queen Ashera, and all of his sons), not to mention that Jesus was hardly the first "god-man" myth- it's a common story that has cropped up again and again, with Krishna, Horus, Mithra, even Caesar, Scipio Africanus, and Hannibal's male lover whose name I cannot for the life of me remember right now... almost everyone was deified at that time, usually born of a virgin, with twelve disciples, etcetera.

It was hardly new. You can see the ancient statues of the "Madonna and Child," and it's Isis and Horus, Isis being the Queen of Heaven and a virgin when she gave birth to Horus, who also... had twelve disciples, died and was resurrected, and so forth. This is because they were all personifications and myths of the sun. (If you or anyone is interested, here is a good explanation of the god-men and how they relate to sun worship (http://culturalvision.net/html/pagan_religions.html).)

SORRY TO JUMP IN AND TL;DR, I really am. But... no, Christianity is not inherently wrong because of there being violent people in it. People will be assholes no matter what their religion, people who are assholes will be assholes no matter what. It's the fact that "just believing in something" can only be taken so far (or not at all) for any other beliefs, so it's kind of maddening that even when there's evidence against it, the fallback for the religious is "I just know"- and that's a perfectly acceptable argument in society. If someone can't reasonably "just know" that Zeus or Thor or invisible pegasus that fly through the skies overhead exist, there's no reason for the Abrahamic god to be given a free pass.

Re: 143

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

Oh damn, now I'm going to be browsing Wikipedia articles on ancient deities for the next three hours

I had to butt in to say that I agree, though. I find it amusing that people can read through things like Greek myths and treat them as fairy tales and then turn around and go to church on Sunday so they can hear about a virgin 14-year-old who gave birth to a baby who died and then rose from the grave as a zombie vampire later the next year.

Re: 143

[poisontea.livejournal.com]

OH SNAP FAGKUDERA- I mean. XD Yeah, Wikipedia is a black hole like that.

I just don't get how everyone, including religious people, demand rationality from all the other aspects of life, except where it involves their religion. They wouldn't sit there and unquestioningly believe in aliens (... mostly, lol I think THAT'S part of why Scientology gets mocked to death), so I don't have any idea why God and Jesus get a free pass.

I mean... seriously. If some guy came up to you on the street and said, "Hey, you see that guy over there? He's the Son of God." Any sane person's reaction would be "yeah, I don't have any change/here's a few bucks." And if they detailed how the guy had really walked on water, raised the dead, so on and so forth, what's the natural reaction to that? "Prove it." And it'd have to be some solid proof, let me tell you. The fact that Jesus has been dead for thousands of years really doesn't make it much saner to believe in the stories about him with no evidence whatsoever.

Re: 143

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

YOU MEAN GOKUGAYRA - rather, yes, the only thing that's worse is TVTropes. :P

I always got the impression that it's 90% about what you're raised to believe. I mean, if someone told you every day of your life that there's a giant elephant in the sky, it gets kinda hard to deny. In the same breath, though, my parents are both religious/spiritual types (one's a church-goer, the other a flakey spiritualist type) and I stopped believing in God around the same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus at the end of the year if you've been good you get presents! At the end of your life if you've been good you get heaven! There has to be a certain amount of taking personal responsibility for what's inside your head.

If enough people parrot something, it becomes truth. It's not just one crazy guy on the street, it's an organized group of crazy guys that look quite tempting and sane.

My brother went through a religious phase a few years back before ending up as an atheist again, and he said it was mostly about the sense of community, feeling like you're part of a whole. In that sense, religion seems to me like nothing more than a widely-accepted cult. :/

Re: 143

[shadsie.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess you understand belief in Christianity about as well as I understand belief in Atheism - which is to say, "not at all." You can't see yourself believing in some things, some of us can't see ourselves not believing in some things.

That said, I see true faith as a very personal thing. (I'm honestly not *strong* enough to accept atheism. I *need* to believe in something beyond death, someone in charge of everyone to stay relatively sane, if that makes sense... which it probably doesn't to you, but that's me).

.... I do see us (Christians) as being very weird, though. I step back and think about our stories and, yeah, we believe in some very bizzare things from a purely rational perspective (Zombie Jesus!!! XD ).

I think one of the bigger differences between Christianity and Scientology, though, is the fact that Christianity is extremely diverse. There are people of a lot of varying "petty" beliefs who consider themselves Christians -- Everyone from the scary politicians and televangelists to the quiet little "personal faith" people like me (who don't agree with Conservative politics and don't even go to church anymore). Then, of course, there's the Amish who segregate themselves away from modern society altogether and don't even bother people on the Internet.

Scientology, as far as I know, is one entity who all believe in things that most others don't much understand, their origins are well-recorded in modern times, and they demand a financial burden of their members. In other words, much more... organized?

Still, I see the point -- just leaves me wondering why she didn't say "ridiculous beliefs like the Qu'ran" or "like Wicca."

Belief and faith are tricky things - and in the end, we're all going to think of each other as "ridiculous."

Just so long as we can get rid of the whole "correlation between belief/lack thereof and intelligence." To me, there's no correlation. There *are* rock stupid atheists and thare *are* extremely intelligent religious people, believe it or not.

Re: 143

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Scientology, as far as I know

I think you've pointed out the problem right there.

Christianity is also much bigger.

Re: 143

[shadsie.livejournal.com]

I think you were just trying to cause wank, frankly.

The OP picked on a religion/cult that's popular to pick on. So did you.

I hate to tell you this, but it just smells of "Ooh, look at how edgy I'm being!" when you're really not. Honestly, this type of thing is getting downright *boring.*

118

[shadsie.livejournal.com]

By the way, since I've actually thought about it (pathetic) I'd either have an Eeve-lution team, or something combining Dark and Fire types. I'd love a Houndoom.

Then there's always that rogue Pidgeot hand-raised from a Lv. 2 Pidgey...

Re: 143

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

It's not just about believing in 'some things', it's the very idea of believing something that's completely unsupported by fact. It's not a 'why could you think this is true' (I can understand wanting to be comforted by the idea of something after death, though I personally find the idea abhorrent and would much prefer oblivion :P I'm very much in line with the Jungian theory that religion was created in order to fill in the gaps of humankind and comfort us in our fear of things like death - the omnipotent being of any religion is often depicted as a parent, 'Call no man on Earth your Father/You have only one Father and He is in Heaven' etc., it makes sense) it's a 'how could you think this is true'. Even if I wanted to believe in God - and there was a time that I did when I was younger, I went to church and bible camp and all that stuff - but none of that made a difference because I was unable to believe in something that isn't backed up by fact. It's just completely irrational. The ability to believe in something that's not there - I just don't get it, fundamentally speaking.

Since Christianity is so popular, it's the one that gets picked on the most, really, that's the only reason. Though personally speaking I find most flavours of Wicca - key word most flavours, sometimes it gets weird - to make more general sense than Christianity, as it all comes back to the threefold rule (something like karma, whatever you do, good and bad, comes back to you threefold), the Wiccan Rede (an it harm none, do what ye will), and respecting nature and all that. No weird stories to believe there.

It's not about being stupid, and I hate to say gullible, but it takes a certain type of personality to believe in religion, and my problem is that I can't differentiate between the type of person who would join a cult and the type of person who would go to a Christian church. Both require the same sort of blocking out certain sets of information (scientific, accepting your own religion while, in most cases, denying others) while accepting others without question.

And speaking of questions: Did Adam and Eve have bellybuttons?

Re: 143

[j-a-lie.livejournal.com]

It's faith; I don't have to have a proof to believe in it. And yes, you guessed correctly as to what I'd say to some people who believe in fairies, but respecting other people's opinion doesn't necessarily mean that I have to say that they're right. Frankly the call for me is that God the creator of this universe wants to have a loving relationship with a sinful human such as I am. Not even all Christians believe in that, so fine.

My looking for reasons to believe it is a part of an automatic human psychology ( I believe it's called cognitive dissociation). I believe in something, therefore I must know why I believe it (some will ultimately fall back to "I just know"). I am not smart enough to know everything, and therefore I will fall back to "I just know".

What is this "free pass" you speak off anyway? Our society has grown to make it a norm to accept every belief as a possibility. If someone can believe in no deities with or without reason, then why not giving a free pass to someone to believe in whatever deity they choose?

And now that I'm TL;DR myself, I believe we're even ;) No offense in all seriousness and honesty meant.

1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT

[poisontea.livejournal.com]

That's true, you don't have to have belief to have faith, but that's where I think it's baffling: how people can believe in anything just through faith and think that's at all reasonable. Religious people like you I don't mind; as near as I can tell, you're using God as a reason to be good to and love your fellow man, as well as finding something bigger than yourself. I think there is inherent harm in encouraging someone toward delusion, even if it's a nice delusion (such as fairies), but the real problem is the Abrahamic religions at their very core are not loving religions. They have changed and been added to and become sweeter over the years, but their roots were in far less pleasant things- that most people who follow those religion still believe in.

Say that, as in those religions, you have a stance on... say, homosexuality. Some people stick with the very idea that homosexuals are monsters that God will destroy/torment forever and good riddance, they deserve it. Now, that's not all believers, and I'm not trying to say it is. But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society. It's unpleasant and belittling. It would be horrible to be disowned by your family for being gay, but it would also be horrible to have your parents say that it's "your choice" but they'll "pray for you" (making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed), or to be given the impression that well, you can do that in THIS life, but you'll see the light in the next and realize you were led astray (again, something wrong, "less real" and lesser that needs to be fixed).

And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.

That's what's weird to me. The decent Christians come across to me as really inherently good people who've taken hold of the good parts of the Bible and discarded all the rest because it doesn't make sense to them. And I don't see how they can do that and still believe in the God of the Bible- which they are obviously not taking as scripture in a lot of areas, where they realize that it is being absurd.

Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT

[j-a-lie.livejournal.com]

I'm so going to be dogpiled for this. Opinions expressed by me are the way they are as I am a Presbyterian.

how people can believe in anything just through faith and think that's at all reasonable.

Not exactly...It's like how you can't really explain or rationalize or even say that emotions are reasonable but they're there anyway, and they're real, and whatever you do you can't chase them away. Being reasonable is quite often overrated, as much as I'd like to believe that everything has to make sense.

I think there is inherent harm in encouraging someone toward delusion
I'll reverse that to how can you keep being in denial that humanity needs something to worship, be it themselves, statues, deities, or whatnots. Calling it delusion for all religions is borderline offensive as many religious people can attest that they are not delusional in the slightest.

But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society.

I'm sorry, but by the same logic, so is your belief that we are putting something unpleasant out into society.

For the record, homosexuality is a sin. Period. So the Bible says. Yeah, some churches claim that it's not in the Bible. My point is, it's just a flaw in humanity like egotism is.

making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed

That would be because we believe that what makes you happy is not always what is good or right. Right now I'm too tired to come up with a relevant example, but...It's the same for homosexuality and sex before marriage, in that only religions will call them sins but totally fine to others.

Honestly, we don't have enough control that we can change whatever we don't like. Hence praying for people. Even if, for example, I am hopelessly smitten with a bad boy and adamant about it and my parents do not agree with my choice on any account, they will probably say "your choice" and "we'll pray for you", presumably so that either I or him see the light. Granted, bad boys are obviously bad but homosexuality is just bad in some religions, still, it's a natural parental reaction.

And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.

I didn't expect that from a non-Christian's standpoint, lol. I agree. Interpretations and all that, which should explain why there's so many denominations (not that all of the differences does matter all of the time if you ask me). Human nature; Christians are just humans. It just so happens that we do promote free speech and thinking compared to, say, Muslims.

decent Christians

Just curious, do you know many variants of Christians or just the liberal ones and the fundamentalists? Or does decent mean somewhat agreeable to you? I know plenty of Christians who take the Bible seriously, don't pick on just the parts they like, and don't do insane antics like assaulting people with different opinions.

Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT

[cn-the-impaler.livejournal.com]

"And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs."

Actually there's a fairly strong argument based on the original Greek texts for Christian universalism; the argument that while there is a Hell, it isn't an eternal one, and it's actually more in line with the concept of purgatory. Lots of interesting (well, to me at least) stuff at www.tentmaker.org.

Other than that, I have no interest in contributing to this argument. Carry on.

Re: 143

[poisontea.livejournal.com]

As for the "free pass," it's what you've described, pretty much. Our society has not made it a norm to accept every belief as fact. As possibility, yes- but again, you're jumping from theory to law without proving anything except "I think it's true." Someone who believes there might be aliens is acceptable in society, but someone who thinks that they're abducting people and walking around among us, as a fact, just because they "have a feeling" isn't acceptable at all. And that's the thing: even if it's a harmless belief (which, in most cases, Abrahamic religion is not), it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it. And sadly, I think too many people do that these days anyway. It's easy to go with the crowd, and harder to actually look into what you believe and why you believe it, especially if it's a comfortable belief.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

No big deal here, I really do like debating this. You seem reasonable, really, and you're one of the religious types that I find very inoffensive: I just am inherently :/ about a religion that says "we're all right, you're all wrong, so join us or die" at its core while saying that any sort of proof is not only unnecessary, it shouldn't even be searched for.

Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT

[j-a-lie.livejournal.com]

Now I'm half lost as to what encompass Abrahamic religion or how they're harmless. My built in defense is that people interpret things differently and that different denominations act differently. Which is to say: I don't believe that at the core Christianity is about causing harm to other people but in a world of actions and consequences it's inevitable.

My personal analogy is that you can call a tree a stone if you want, but sometimes a tree is just a tree and definitely not a stone. Or in the old days, whether the earth is flat or round. 4000 years ago it would be very hard to prove which is true or not, and you can either whip out a very good reason why or just say that it is. (As a side note, the Bible actually says that the world is round (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2040:22&version=31)). Frustrating as it is, sometimes you just can't prove it now. And then we jump from theory to law because we do need something to guide our way of living.

it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it

And ultimately it's entirely up to that person as well as that person's responsibility as to what they believe or do with their life. It's not limited to religious folks where people like to just go with the flow without thinking. You can't say that it's religion's fault; on the other hand there are people blindly believing in science without actually knowing what science it is. And I'm not just talking about people who are used to religion before switching to science.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

That's why the Bible is so important to us. That's one of your proofs, right there. Another is the world around us - how do they all fit in so well as though somebody planned it all along? (And I'm perfectly aware that it can so happen that things do fall into pieces randomly and since that's what the facts are of course we'll claim it's so perfectly arranged because that's the alternative we have.)

I'm a terrible speaker. So, just to cement my less than sane status, if anyone's going to change your mind it's God. Not me.

[(Anonymous)]

Holy bugger, that icon is made of win. :O

Did you make it yourself? Is there a tutorial somewhere that I can use to make one of my own? That is just cool. :D

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yeah, and this is addressed to paperclipchains. I didn't know it would post at the very bottom. ^^;

143

[stormithe.livejournal.com]

Wait.. did you just get offended over something NOT being insulted? What?