fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4975 ]

[ SECRET POST #4975 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4975 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Utopian and dystopian fiction - which do you prefer? Favorite examples of either? Things you particularly like or hate to see in utopian and dystopian settings?

I like both, but when it comes to dystopian stuff I still need to have genuinely heroic characters doing heroic things and I need an actually happy or semi-happy ending where things are at least starting to get better.

Star Trek would be a favorite Utopian. How to Train Your Dragon is kind of utopian. At least, they create a utopia.

Black Panther is kind of utopian and also shows how a utopian society needs to interact with other cultures and share what it has and not just be in isolation.

The Silmarillion would actually be in my mind dystopian fiction. Things are pretty genuinely dystopian for most of it, but there is always hope and there are always good people willing to do the right thing even when it costs.

I love the Giver book. One of my favorite dystopias. Funnily enough this one is also utopian in that the society in question claims to be a utopia.

Edge of Tomorrow is a great dystopian movie. The aliens have almost conquered the Earth and seem unstoppable.

Edited 2020-08-19 22:19 (UTC)

I love Star Trek but it doesn't feel all that utopian to me personally because I know deep down I wouldn't fit in any better there than I do in the real world.

I don't think you have to? Post-scarcity means even if you can't find a job that suits you or anyone who likes you, you can go off on your own and still have all your needs taken care of. At least in my mind, they still have cats, as Data has one. I can't do heights, so I'd never be able to be in a starship. But I'm sure I could find somewhere on Earth and just live my introvert life, even if I couldn't make it as a futuristic lawyer.

Re: Inspired by #3

greghousesgf - 2020-08-20 01:23 (UTC) - Expand

Dystopias disguised at utopias. Favorites: The Uglies, The Giver, Other World in Coraline, Hot Fuzz, Animal Farm, Bioshock/Bioshock Infinite (you have to read the book to get it for the first Bioshock game).

Edited 2020-08-19 22:11 (UTC)

I do love those settings but also I now can't stop imagining what a utopia disguised as a dystopia would look like

There is only one I can think of and it ONLY works from an outsider POV. That is Wakanda.

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-19 22:37 (UTC) - Expand

I think it’s kind of impossible to have a utopia disguised as a dystopia in the same way that dystopias are usually disguised as utopias - I.e. the society itself is told/convinced that it’s a utopia when it’s very much not.

Because if the message within a society is that it’s a dystopia when it’s actually a utopia, then the society is lying to itself/its people and basically massive-scale gaslighting them, which is not really something an actual utopia can do and still be considered a utopia. It’s kind of a catch-22.

But kaijinscendre makes a good point, that you can have a utopia that outsiders perceive as a dystopia--probably usually as a way for the text to discuss racism, xenophobia, and cultural chauvinism.

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-19 22:41 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 00:55 (UTC) - Expand

I'm just here to correct a mistake that's already been made and will probably be made more.

All dystopias are disguised as utopias to the characters who live in them and sometimes the reader as well. If a terrible society doesn't sell an image of being a great place, if everyone who lives there knows it sucks, it's not a dystopia. It's just a terrible society. I think TV Tropes calls it a Crapsack World. In any case, not a dystopia.

I totally disagree, and I don't in any way know where you get this definition of dystopias, or where this formal distinction between "dystopias" and "terrible societies" comes from. As far as I can determine, the term has no more precise definition than "the opposite of a utopia." I reject your definition and I don't know what authority it's based on.

Why do you think that?

I actually really like this distinction and think it's valuable. But I don't think it's officially correct according to a general consensus of literary or philosophical authorities.

Your definition is highly ideosyncratic, not standard. This is obvious when you look at one of the foundational dystopian works - Nineteen Eighty-Four.

The Party does exactly the opposite of presenting Oceanea as a utopia. It's in a permanent state of war, the Outer Party members are kept in a state of perpetual fear (of the Thought Police, of each other, of whichever foreigners are on the opposing side of the war), and while the Proles are distracted with bread and circuses, even they know things are shit on a macro level - it's just not their business.

Funnily, since you cite TV Tropes, it should be noted that they draw a distinction between Dystopia and False Utopia (which are both subsets of Crapsack World)...though they're not mutually exclusive, the former does not require the latter.

A Dystopia, by TV Tropes definition, is a Crapsack World that draws its Crapsackness by extrapolating/exaggerating from real world issues. (This is, of course, as ideosyncratic to TV Tropes as your definition is to you.)

A False Utopia is...just what it says on the tin.

Excellent points.

Dystopian. But I only like it if the main character is an antihero type (e.g. 1984). If they're a poor, beleaguered hero (e.g. Hunger Games), hard pass. And no happy endings. I'm not reading/watching dystopia for happy endings. I want to be disturbed at the beginning and totally disillusioned and disgusted by the end.

Dystopian because I honestly can't fathom society ever achieving utopia, not without force; it's against human nature altogether and if we have to be forced into a state of utopia, that in itself is dystopian.

Oh my, do I spy a fellow nihilistic left libertarian?

NAYRT

If you don't think that left-libertarian ends are achievable by left-libertaran means, in what sense are you actually a left-libertarian?

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 00:04 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 01:12 (UTC) - Expand

I think that utopias are obviously fictional idealizations that we come up with, but I think they're still useful constructs in allowing us to imagine how society might be improved and how human societies could function together in useful ways, and I think they're entertaining fictional worlds to spend time in.

And I think that the scope of conceivable change in human societies is absolutely massive, whether or not perfection is attainable.

That's a very American POV.

Arguably as much if not more English than American, as far as the history of philosophy goes, if we're to take into account the notion of mankind being of an inherently dark nature and society being ill equipped to handle said nature.

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 03:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 03:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 05:42 (UTC) - Expand

That doesn't make it wrong.

I understand, you're a European who thinks your country is a utopia or on its way there because it's not America. That's why you're in a dystopia. That's. The point.

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 04:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 05:27 (UTC) - Expand

Not all countries are as culturally fractured as the US, and not as a result not all cultures consider doing things for the benefit of society as dystopic.

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 06:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Inspired by #3

(Anonymous) - 2020-08-20 07:04 (UTC) - Expand

Ones that are kind of hard to tease out I guess. Because my favorite example of both utopia and dystopia is City. On the one hand, we have a canine utopia. But on the other hand, humanity has come to a lovely, empathetic end. This probably sounds super weird, but it's a weird book, and I really love it. Haven't found anything else quite like it.

What are some examples of stories set in a utopia where it's not actually a false utopia, or the characters have to leave the utopia for a story to happen, or there's a threat from outside?

Unless we're defining "utopia" like Star Trek where no one is poor but shit still happens, then what stories can be told in a utopia? Where's the conflict?

As much as I love Mad Max and think some pretty great stories can be told about dystopias, I think I ultimately prefer something on the level of Star Trek where we can all be very optimistic about the future but still have adventures.

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