[ SECRET POST #5971 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5971 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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02.
[Monster Musume]



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04. [SPOILERS for The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel]




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05. [WARNING for Andrew Tate and associated discussion]




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06. [WARNING for discussion of child abuse]




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07. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia, antisemitism]

[Saturday Night Live]























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #853.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

01. https://i.imgur.com/fhMS7nC.png

[(Anonymous)]

Ah yes, the famous *checks notes* documentary where Cleo was black - Xena: Historical Greek Princess

You got me, OP. I'm convinced. Actual Egyptians should sit down and be quiet now

[(Anonymous)]

Cleopatra was also not Egyptian

[(Anonymous)]

It's because it plays into a common and pernicious misreading of history OP

[(Anonymous)]

The problem is Netflix claiming it's a documentary when we know that Cleopatra was of Greek decent.

[philstar22]

The difference being they are pretending this is a documentary.

[(Anonymous)]

If it was just that the cast actress is black, I'd agree. But it's in actually claiming that the real Cleopatra was really black that the nonsense comes in.

If you want to explore that idea, write a conspiracy movie along the lines of the Da Vinci Code and go wild.

[(Anonymous)]

I would 100% read a novel about Cleopatra, mysteries, secret societies and cyphers.

[deleted_scenes]

It's because it's calling itself a documentary.

P

[(Anonymous)]

It hurts the cause for real recognition of black historical people. Claiming a person we know was not black as black just makes it easier to dismiss the identities of real black people.

Re: P

[(Anonymous)]

This. There are Africans queens in other countries of Africa that would have started with and started with the known Greek one. They should have started with Queen Njinga of Ndongo and Matamba first.

[(Anonymous)]

To my understanding, the upset is over the international frustration with America's revisionist history of Cleopatra's race.

IMHO I think the anger is cloaked racism playing out as it does in service to white supremacy.
I don't have the education or background to make a strong statement on this.

I get the historical importance of getting the facts straight.

But on the other hand, we would do well to question why we white wash so much of history and make such a big deal out of something that stems from things that are much more complex and multi-layered than just Cleopatra the literal person who existed a long ass time ago before any of us on earth were born.

It's like engaging with people who want to complain about the new "The Little Mermaid". I get that some of the nitpicks are just nitpicks and fans have a right to nitpick, but if racists are coming in with bad faith takes so they can revel in their racism I don't want to be engaging with people like that. If I am to be critical of "The Little Mermaid" I would want to do my homework in not giving racists legit criticisms they can sprinkle in with their racist opinions.
Like, I'm not calling anyone a racist but I am aware that racists love to dehumanize Black women and so complaining that Halle Bailey isn't pretty enough or her hair isn't red enough...even if it's not your intent, it still gives into misogynoir. Participating legitimizes the racists' POV. You would rather have your little soapbox to do a fandom complaint than not give into systemic racism.
That is the issue and I know it's shit pill to swallow but at some point you just have to accept the choices that you make.
I'm aware people will call me a sensitive SJW. Naive and stupid and I read racism into everything.
But I would rather question how something amps up systemic racism than potentially feeding into it.

[(Anonymous)]

First of all, it is not 'America' that is trying to revise history here. It is a specific movement among African-American black nationalists. Describing it as 'American' misunderstands what is going on (and tbh it also undercuts your broader point in some ways but w/e).

Second, to me, the reason to object to rewriting Cleopatra as black is because it is a revisionist conspiratorial misreading of history. It's an abuse of history for political ends, it's not a valid or legitimate weapon in any kind of struggle against racism, and it's wrong. Revionist ethnonationalists who want to distort history are wrong and we should stand against nationalism that has to justify itself with bullshit conspiratorial historical mythmaking, whoever it's coming from.

Third, if you want to say that people objecting to Cleopatra being black are doing the same thing as people objecting to Ariel being black.... you really need to do a lot more to establish that argument. Because they aren't the same thing. One is a historical figure and one is a fixtop Al character. Similarly if you want to say that objecting to Cleopatra being depicted as black is cloaked racism you *have* to provide some kind of argument or justification for that.

[(Anonymous)]

Ariel is fictional. People making a big deal over her skin color are racist.

But if you're filming about a real person and calling it a documentary, get the known facts right. Cleopatra was Greek. End of issue. And we also have tons of documentaries on her; we don't need to retread over her story again, especially if they're going to get something so fundamental wrong and it just panders to conspiracy theorists.

There are tons of awesome actually black queens that haven't gotten a major documentary.

[(Anonymous)]

I stopped right at "America's revisionist history of Cleopatra's race." You are absolutely clueless if you think it's at all mainstream for "America" in its popular culture or academically - even at like, elementary school level - to claim that Cleopatra was black. That's 21st century, mainly terminally-online thing. If you say "Cleopatra" to the average US citizen, they're not going to picture a black woman.

[(Anonymous)]

You're right and I'm glad you said it.

Dumb question

[(Anonymous)]

How do we know she wasn't black? Not trying to start something, honestly curious.

Re: Dumb question

[(Anonymous)]

Basically there are two big reasons.

I e, she was from a royal dynasty that was mostly Greek and didn't marry Egyptians. We know her father was of Greek descent, and we're not sure about her mother but she was probably Greek or Persian.

Two, Egyptians (mostly) weren't what we today would recognize as black. People we recognize today as black are largely descended from sub-Saharan Africans - Egyptians were and are predominantly North African. They're mostly distinct groups.

Re: Dumb question

[(Anonymous)]

She was the last Hellenistic (Greek) ruler of the Ptolomaic Egypt, a dynasty which was in power in Egypt for over 200 years. She is known to be a descendant of Ptolomy Soter, a Macedonian (Greek/Balkans) general and bodyguard to Alexander the Great.

The thing about Egyptian Pharaohs is that they, well, liked to keep it in the family. Cleopatra's mother was probably also her aunt. Cleopatra's first husband was her brother.

Re: Dumb question

[(Anonymous)]

There is most likely some Nubian heritage on her mother's side, and Persian heritage on both sides, as well as mostly Macedonian. But the real issue with this debate is that everyone doesn't fit into neat little American racial categories. Are Macedonians white? Sometimes. Are they black? No. What about Persians? What about someone with one African ancestor? The answer is highly variable.

[(Anonymous)]

she cheated on her husband btw. Also nepothism.

[(Anonymous)]

Her brother-husband? In a monarchy?

[(Anonymous)]

Shrug. I think the big complaint is that it claims to be factual.

Since I'm not Egyptian and don't have skin in the game, I'm just going to point out that people... massaging... historical figures to make them more palatable to an intended audience is really not new, and leave it at that.

[(Anonymous)]

I just hope the show depicts Cleopatra as the cunning, multi-lingual, badass queen who kept the Roman Empire at bey that she was, rather than all those shallow depictions of her which reduce her to a seductive vamp.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't even know about it if the trailer didn't literally tell an actual lie about her. Like, Ann Boleyn or Gwenevere can be cast with a black actress and that's cool but if you start out a movie like "Remember honey, no matter what they say Pocahontas was black" I'm going to have an issue.