fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #6030 ]

+10000

(Some people might consider this a traumadump, so you can ignore this response if you don’t want to read my full response)

Most of my lying was when I was a teenager who’s “friends” would exclude him if he didn’t watch all the things they did. There was no “Oh, you haven’t watched it? Let me gush about it!” that other anons get from these people. And that was just one of the many ways they bullied me. Excluding me was just the tip of the iceberg of that psychological and emotional abuse glacier.

I had to unlearn so much of my coping mechanisms when they were finally out of my life for good. But it wasn’t always easy, and I would still unthinkingly lie, even about silly things like movies I hadn’t seen, to protect myself. Before I reminded myself that my new friends wouldn’t do what my bullies did, and I’m not in highschool anymore. I’ve been much more honest since I unlearned the behaviors. Therapy helped, and so did my family and new friends.

So yeah, I don’t appreciate the implication by association that teenage me was a “lying sack of shit”. AYRT’s self-righteous and black and white comment makes me feel defensive, and I can’t help it. Because there’s nuance for why some people lie. Sometimes it is for simple reasons, but it’s usually not. And the reasons are almost always definitely not to attack the person being lied to. But for fear of being verbally attacked themselves in some cases.

It’s awesome that worked on that! I’m not being even a little sarcastic, I’m aware that takes a monumental effort. But it doesn’t mean the people you lied to in the past are required to start trusting you again or believe anything you said back then even if you only lied about some things. You lost all credibility for that time and probably some time after, possibly even forever with some of the people you knew then. That’s just how it goes. Lie and get branded liar.

Lying about having seen a show is not that serious bro. Reflect on why *you* have such a knee-jerk reaction to white lies.

I know exactly why I have no tolerance for lies. You not agreeing with me isn’t going to change anything *shrug*

Have to agree with this anon. "Lying" is not even an across the board social faux pas, let alone a mortal sin. And if someone's morality is so black-and-white that there's no room for a person to lie about anything, ever, I probably don't want to be anywhere near them. That's evangelical-grade moral absolutism.

And yet here you are in the thread started by a person you said you didn’t want to be anywhere near.

Look, I didn’t go into any other comments and start throwing shit at the multiple people who said they also lie. I wasn’t even an asshole to the person who came into my thread and said they used to do that. I think it’s shitty behavior to lie to someone’s face and if someone does it to me I cannot trust them about anything. Ever. Even if it’s a lie YOU think is ok.

But I do wonder at the many people in this thread that imply it wouldn’t erode their trust in someone. It is human nature to trust someone less when you know they lied to you. It’s a nearly universal mammalian trait.

At work I don’t put my subordinates into positions where they feel they have to lie because then I cannot objectively perform their reviews. But if any of the people I do lightly socialize with lie to me I avoid having anything to do with them again. And more often than not the people who compulsively lie about things you don’t think matter also go on to lie about much bigger things. Not always but damn close.

I do wonder a bit also if some of this isn’t a matter of imaging vastly different scenarios: I’m speaking about actual occurrences that took place face to face in which someone repeatedly pretended something that wasn’t true. I wouldn’t judge someone on social media the same way if it were something like a tumblr post or a tweet or anything like that. I also wouldn’t care as much if it were a passing stranger but then again, I wouldn’t be in that kind of situation so that’s a moot point. I’m only ever in that position with people I am around regularly and have to have some measure of trust with. “Is Linda telling the truth about what happened? Or is she lying to cover her ass? She IS the type to lie about being a fan of a tv show she’s never seen.” Yeah, that’s a real thing. And in Linda’s case she was lying to cover her ass and no one trusts her even a little but HR recommended to the bosses not to fire her so most everyone tries to avoid having anything to do with her.

DA you complimented the anon on having worked to improve themselves, but that doesn't mean you weren't an asshole to them. Maybe you should consider working on yourself in a similar vein so that your own experiences don't filter into others, like now.

+1

How was I an asshole to them? My initial comment hurt their feelings because of their guilt over past shitty behavior. That’s not on me, that’s on them. It’s for them to own it which obviously they have and that’s a GOOD thing. I didn’t insult them or do anything to make them feel worse. Are you upset because I didn’t say that because they no longer compulsively lie that the lies they told in the past are erased? Because they aren’t. And if you read their comment, the lying wasn’t just to the people that they felt they had to lie to, it became a compulsory behavior. If anyone from that time in their life is still in their life now, it’s entirely plausible that the trust between them isn’t as strong as anon thinks. That’s the consequence of being a dishonest person no matter the reason for it *shrug*

DA

Nah, you're assuming a lot. They didn't like being insulted (which is what your claiming anyone who does this is a sack of shit was). That's not the same thing as "they feel bad because they were a bad person." Maybe you want them to feel like a bad person, but you know what? That's why people are saying you're being an asshole.

You've probably never met this person, and yet you're acting like you get to play the role of someone they wronged in the past. And stand up on behalf of whoever you imagine they offended by not disclosing what they did with themselves in their free time. The "crime" you're accusing them of seems ridiculous to me, and yeah, like defensive asshole behavior.

You may have entirely valid reasons to be angry with other people for lying to you in the past. That, I know nothing about. But I see how you were treating the person who was right in front of you, upthread, and I don't think they deserved any of that.

^^^

This

Maybe it's more a neurotypical trait for lying to be acceptable? I'm with you, anon. You start lying to me, and I'm never trusting you about anything again. Doesn't matter what you lied to me about.

Thread OP
Yes I’m ND. But as I’ve stated elsewhere it’s actually really common even with neurotypical people to not trust someone who lied to them. The fact that the example is something of such little consequence actually makes it worse because someone who lies about inconsequential things cannot be trusted to be honest about important matters.

But again, I think context matters. I’m working off the premise of this being a face to face encounter where an entire conversation takes place, not a throwaway comment either in person or on social media. That sort of behavior wouldn’t erode my trust, I would assume it was an avoidance tactic. But to partake in a whole conversation based on the lie that one is knowledgeable about the subject of the conversation is shitty behavior at the very kindest and indicative of major character defects.

The only real impact my ND has on this is that I’m baffled at how many people think being caught in a lie wouldn’t someone’s erode trust in the liar. It absolutely will if we’re talking about grown adults. Anyone mid twenties and above who does that stuff is flawed. Great for them if they can surround themselves with people like the ones in this thread who praise them for being compulsive liars but somehow I doubt that’s actually the case.

AYRT

I'm still baffled by weird stuff NT people do. I've mostly given up trying and I just take each situation as they happen. I'm just so weirded out by this situation, though. How hard is it to say, "yeah, I tried the first book, but I couldn't get into it"? Like, is it painful or something??

I am NT and baffled too. I can understand why someone would do it, but I can't understand how everyone so mellow about it.

I don't necessarily think that relationships with a compulsive liar are necessarily that bad. But I do think that it makes things awkward in a long run.

AYRT

I was in this thread, replying to someone else. Alright, though: since you engaged, we'll talk now.

> It is human nature to trust someone less when you know they lied to you. It’s a nearly universal mammalian trait.

I disagree. I am human, and it is not in my nature to treat lies like an indiscriminately evil thing. Everyone I've ever been close to uses them, and often to protect the wellbeing of people they care about. Lies are powerful, but they are not inherently abusive.

I will concede that some of the people I've met who lie about small things lie about many things. It depends what they're doing and why. But I have other ways to assess what I can expect from them that are more to the point. Lies that make a pattern that's to their benefit and my detriment - there's a danger sign. Elaborate lies, like pretending someone sent a third party a letter on their behalf when they wrote it themselves and forged the signature - that's the sort of behavior I may not forgive. But just being afraid to admit they didn't watch a movie or read a book? No. These things are not alike to me at all.

You seem concerned that the people disagreeing with your approach are telling you that you have to adopt our methods, and that's not my intent. I expect you to know better what works in your life.

It would have been nice if you hadn't replied to traumadump anon with "good for you for getting better, but no one who knows you lied about anything will ever trust you again." You don't speak for all of us, and I fully expect them to find people who will empathize, and care, and trust them regardless. It sounds like they already have. But I didn't direct my comments to you because it seemed unlikely that you would want them.

those people don't deserve honesty.

Your takeaway from someone lying to avoid being bullied is that the /bullies/ don't trust them anymore? Get over yourself.

+1

Ps: you know this but your friends sucked. I’m happy for you that you have a healthier social circle now!

This.

AYRT

All of this. You put everything I was alluding to in much more specific terms than I could have. And I think it's a shame that the person I replied to decided to come and entrench in "I'm a survivor too, and that gives me every right to be maximally judgmental about anyone ever lying, about anything, no matter how trivial!"

Much as I disagree with that, I'm going to assume they're doing the best they can, too.

But I think you did a lot of other anons who were wondering "why would anyone lie about having watched a show?" a favor by explaining. Because most people who don't think like that, and wouldn't be gleefully exclusionary and cruel to someone over nothing, can't imagine what it's like to be on the recieving end of that, if they haven't been.

TOP

And I think it's a shame that the person I replied to decided to come and entrench in "I'm a survivor too, and that gives me every right to be maximally judgmental about anyone ever lying, about anything, no matter how trivial!"
That didn’t happen.

I’m not required to trust anyone who has proven they are liar even if you would. That’s it. That’s all.

I think you’re mistaking someone else’s comment for mine. The one about trauma reasons for mistrust isn’t me. My reasons have nothing to do with trauma and nowhere did I claim that they do. I just flat out don’t trust anyone who isn’t honest. I don’t know if it’s a location thing or a career field thing or a generation thing but in my experience, compulsive lying is extremely rare in adults and not trusting compulsive liars is extremely common. If the teens next door me lied to me I’d second guess some things they say over the next few years but ten years from now I wouldn’t because in my experience very young people lying to fit in or seem older or more worldly or cool is common. But after around 22 or 23 that behavior is character defect.

AYRT

Yes, I did think you and another anon were the same person. No offense meant.

I have no way of knowing if your opinion is career related or age related or simply a you-thing. (But I can think of many more jobs where people are absolutely required to lie than ones where they are even allowed to be honest!) And no, I don't think you "have" to do anything the way I do it. However, if you're defining "honest" as "never lies about anything" it seems quite impossible to me that anyone should qualify as that. There are situations where I will mistrust individuals in the future for not giving me accurate information, but there are a great many more when it's of no consequence to me.

I've helped people get out of abusive situations by lying to people who had power over them. I've protected myself from unscrupulous people with a poker face and zero guilt over lying and keeping it up for as long as I had to. And these are just the extremes. The way I see it, there are degrees to what people are entitled to know about me: the ones who earn my trust and affection get to hear things that everyone else doesn't. Whether they know what to ask me about or not. And everyone else doesn't - even if they ask and expect me to "be honest."

To the extent that I've ever had reason to complain about "compulsive" liars, as opposed to everyone else, it's because they're erratic and can be easier to see through. IME, that's always covering a more complex problem. I've met none that are functional enough to really be out to get me, in any sense. But they're certainly capable of screwing other people over incidentally. So, you're right that I don't trust someone very far if I see they improvise lies to save situations that seem to be going wrong for them. And wind up having to do that a lot. But I've also never seen any good come from berating them over it.

[ SECRET POST #6030 ]

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