[ SECRET POST #6138 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6138 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.
[Adventure Time: Fionna and Cake]



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04.



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05.
[Blood of Youth]



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06.
[Arknights]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #877.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

I've been thinking about this nearly non-stop, due to conversations both here and elsewhere.

Is there anything that's so bad, that no one should ever do it? The impression I get is that no, there isn't; there's always some reason, some justification, that can be found for why some terrible thing, under some particular circumstance, is perfectly fine to do. Murder, torture, rape, genocide - none of these things is wrong as a matter of course. There are occasions when each one of them makes sense.

But the question is: how do we reliably identify those occasions? How do we determine which formula works best, given that we're all beset by biases, and that we all prefer our in-group to our out-group? If we say that it's wrong for an oppressor to brutalize the oppressed, but it's fine for the oppressed to brutalize the oppressor, how do we guarantee that we know which is which? And how do we guarantee that the roles won't reverse? If I subjugate the people who have oppressed me, then don't I become the oppressor? And after some time, don't my former oppressors gain the right to once more subjugate me?

How can oppression end, if we don't condemn the hallmarks of oppression themselves; if we merely swap positions in the hierarchy? How can we dismantle a system if we continue to use the tools of the system?

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

Uhh, when is rape or genocide ever justified?

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I'm personally not sure, but I've had people in the past few weeks tell me that it's possible to find cases where they are.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

There was a news story about a decade ago about a mexican cartel forcing (attempting to force?) kidnapping victims who were siblings to have sex with each other. It would not be a stretch for one sibling to categorically refuse, and the other to do it to save both of their lives. I would be hard pressed to say the sibling complying was morally wrong in that case.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

But the one who goes along with it in that case is doing so under duress. They are, in a sense, themselves being raped, and the moral culpability lies with the individual(s) forcing them to do it.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm, yeah I'll give it that.

But how would justified genocide even work?

I literally can't think of an example where it would be justified to kill a group of people, young and old. I don't quite want to either.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

Murder, torture, rape, genocide - none of these things is wrong as a matter of course. There are occasions when each one of them makes sense.

In that case, this was slightly icky phrasing if you're not even sure yourself. That's a really wild statement to make without something to back it up.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

It's not, but when it happens to Jews/Zionists/Israelis/Americans that support Israel that may or may not be Jewish, then 50% of the world thinks it's okay.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

Oh noes, someone called them on their bullshit. It's just like genocide.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

how do we guarantee that we know which is which? And how do we guarantee that the roles won't reverse?

You can't. That's the human condition, there are no guarantees. The best marker I've found is harm reduction. Unfortunately, a lot of societies refuse to see harm being done, e.g. putting medical care behind a paywall, forcing people to work in harmful industries so they don't starve, perpetuating the idea that someone can incite and be 100% responsible for violence perpetrated on them (rape victims, etc etc) etc etc.

How can oppression end, if we don't condemn the hallmarks of oppression themselves; if we merely swap positions in the hierarchy? How can we dismantle a system if we continue to use the tools of the system?

This is nominally where laws are supposed to correct things. For instance, victims of crimes are not allowed to be the police officer going after the suspect, they're not allowed to be the prosecutor, the defense, the judge, or in the jury. When we don't exclude them, we get things like the Hatfield and the McCoy feud, where it's just death after death after death. The idea is that the victim is too emotionally compromised to make the correct decision for the community. Naturally, it falls to fallible humans to enact this, and we fail at it. A lot. We also have very little experience with dealing with this on a global scale, when the victims and perpetrators are the governments of countries.

Also, a lot of people don't want to condemn the hallmarks of oppression because that oppression benefits them in some way (mens rights activists, racists, etc etc). They fear that if the oppression goes away, the victims of it WILL turn the tables, so they justify the oppression as "defense".

The answer, unfortunately, is to listen to science when it tells us the best way to go about reaching our goals, and the things we must absolutely avoid. You can see how much people want to listen to science when their emotions tell them they're completely justified. *gestures at everything*

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

The issue there is what's meant by science. Plenty of things that have in the moment seemed scientific have been used to justify some fairly terrible actions.

What if science winds up telling us that some people really are "inferior," in the sense that they have lower intelligence, or a greater propensity for aggression, or a tendency to be irrational? Shall we listen to it?

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Science doesn't tell us what our goals are. If your goal is to eliminate red hair from the population, science can tell us how to do that. If your goal is to create a more peaceful society, science can tell us how to do that, too. Science has already shown that there aren't "inferior" people, but even if something like that could be scientifically proven, science doesn't tell us what to do with those "inferior" people.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

No, I think I can say murder, torture, rape and genocide are wrong as a matter of course. Sometimes murder might be understandable, but it's still wrong and that's why we have a legal system, even though it's very, very flawed.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

+1. Murder is the only one where I can say okay, generally a big no but circumstances make a big difference (life or death situations, self-defence, etc.)

But I'm really struggling to picture a scenario where someone might go "yeah actually, that torture/rape/genocide was actually justified. Murdering someone in self-defence might be the only reluctant way out of a rare but very serious situation, whereas the other three imply a level of sadism and deliberate cruelty beyond just trying to survive.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

I mean... I can kinda understand situations where torture would be on the table - if someone is part if a group that intends to kill a lot of people (like in a terrorist or military atrack) and someone has to get relevant infor

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

+information out of them to try and prevent it.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

Torture is a really unreliable way of getting accurate information out of people, though. It negatively impacts memory, and it incentives lying: people will say anything to get it to stop. You're far more likely to wrest a false confession out of a torture victim than you are to gain actual intel.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

The thing about torture is that it doesn't work.

Like, we could debate if cutting a kid's hand off to save them from scurvy was valid. I mean, scurvy is really bad actually and we have great prosthetics and they could live a long and happy life without a hand. But cutting of a kid's hand has nothing to do with scurvy so the debate is fundamentally nonsense.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

This is long and rambly. Read it or ignore it. Either way is fine.

I think there's a thing called self-defense, which is justified when someone is actively threatening your life.

But in defending yourself, is it necessary to brutalize? Can you stop your oppressor without beating the shit out of them? Can you make them stop hurting others without resorting to killing them? Do you want to? Do you feel like you have a choice? I admit there are times it may not be possible, but if you can avoid bloodshed, would you choose that?

Why do you think the roles will be reversed? Are you scared of something?

If you think of the oppressed as people who are abused, think about the numbers there. How many people get abused. How many gain the upper hand and fight off their abusers. How many take the opportunity to get revenge on their abusers. How many go on to abuse others. How many turn inward and abuse themselves instead. How many don't do any of that, and simply want to be treated as equals in a society and live peacefully.

I think a lot of people in the world are good (or at least decent). Yes, we all have the ability to be absolute shitbags (myself included) to one another, especially if we get carried away in groups without stopping to think (group mentality, mob mentality). But is it likely? I think most people just want to live their lives and not hurt others, or be hurt themselves.

I think oppression comes from fear, the fear of being subjugated themselves, because there are those in the world who believe life is a zero sum game, and to be happy, they must fuck others over. Of course, some of them can't accomplish that by themselves, so they must recruit others. Usually manipulating them into dehumanizing other people not a threat to them. That's a pretty awful thing, I think. I don't think anyone has the right to oppress anyone else. I like the idea that society is a contract, and to be a part of it, you must abide by the rules of decency, like not being a fascist fuck (for example). Break enough of the rules, or at least the worst ones, and you aren't covered by the contract. Does this mean you deserve to be oppressed? No, but if you act out in a way that is harmful to others, you should be punished/cast out. And I also think that if you escalated to violence (while harming others), that the others have a right to defend themselves against you.

You asked if anything is beyond the pale? I think several things, but one of the worst is to not see another person as human. Yes, even if that person is the worst piece of shit on the planet. To consider another person as not being worthy of basic rights, of not having the right to food, water, and shelter, of not having the right to bodily autonomy, to be subjected to cruel or torturous treatment against their will, to be killed over unfounded fears. I know some folks joke or vent about how some horrible person deserves (sharp object, possibly rusted) shoved up (random orifice) and I don't judge for that, it's just blowing off steam. But I honestly think most folks couldn't bring themselves to do that to another human, not unless they were coerced or pressured in some terrible way.

Anytime you're oppressing someone, you're oppressing someone. Two wrongs don't make a right.

How can oppression end? That's a good goddamn question, and I don't know if there's a good answer. Move toward ending it, I guess. Start with yourself. Check yourself. If you find yourself in a group that's getting into that mentality, speak up, even though it's hard and you may find yourself cast out. Find folks who don't agree with oppression of any kind and are dedicated to better solutions to a terrible issue. I don't think there's a perfect way.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, most slaves tried to escape, not kill their masters.

But if your master raped your daughter, I'd say he needs killin' and I wouldn't even feel bad about it.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

AM YISRAEL CHAI.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

And Free Palestine!

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

It's already free because it is Israel.

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

but what are your thoughts on yaoi?

Re: Is there anything that's beyond the pale?

[(Anonymous)]

a lot of them are very pale