[ SECRET POST #1555 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1555 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 076 secrets from Secret Submission Post #222.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

16. http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4318/wincest.png

[maskitheclown.livejournal.com]

I really don't see how one is better than the other. He would die for both of them. He follows John's orders like the gospel, but he feels more for Sam. So they are both equally fucked up. (And they would/did die for him, so, y'know.)
The whole point of that pairing, both of them, is in how fucked up it is, and if anyone thinks it's not, whoa.

The idea of John's selfishness probably comes from the fact that he left his 10yo son alone with his baby brother and then blamed him when a mythical creature attacked and he couldn't shoot it, thus turning his son into an obedient little soldier.
I don't think John was a horrible abusive monster, but he was definitely selfish and consumed by his grief and fear.

[no-one-specific.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched the series for awhile, but I didn't think of John as intentionally selfish; I thought he was just put into a craptastic situation where he had no idea what to do, so he did everything in his power to try to make the best for his sons? Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I remember/interpreted it...

[(Anonymous)]

He follows John's orders like the gospel, but he feels more for Sam.
That might be where OP is coming from though? That they're both fucked up and sick and unhealthy, but John/Dean has more of a confined fucked up dimension to it? Dean's ability to keep it together seems a bit more possible than with Sam, where even in canon everything starts to spill all over eventually. That's what I guess anyway.

Both give me the hebejebes.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I can see how people would call John out on the mistakes he made as a father, but selfish? It's not like he left his kids alone because he wanted to party, but because he wanted to help people who were in imminent danger. And pretty much everything that man did in his life - including all the things people call him selfish for - he did because he thought he was either protecting them, or teaching them to protect themselves. I'd understand people blaming John for a lot of things, but the one thing he isn't is selfish.

[meadowphoenix]

Well, I think it comes down to the power deferential, OP. People don't like father son relationships because the child is in an extremely subservient role usually. To me, John and Dean have dialed that up to eleven. I mean, if it was a D/S relationship, than perhaps that would make more sense, but if you're saying a equal relationship, then no way is that less fucked up than Dean/Sam. I also think that in later seasons, hell at the end of Season 3, that the show was saying that Dean wasn't happy with John, but he could never express it until John was dead and he had made the deal, which is not healthy at all. People get selfish and cold-hearted from the fact that he didn't even call his sons back when one of them was dying. Dying. The whole of the first season was him chasing the demon. For his sons, yes. But also despite them, which is something in his parenting that people would have a problem with.

Dean and Sam express displeasure with each other. Dean has a lot of power in that relationship. I would say an equal amount, frankly, though I could see how this could be debated in the first 2 seasons. But season 3 clearly show that Sam is as fucked up about Dean as Dean is about Sam. It seems like they have more of an even playing field. But even then, Dean's obsession with Sam is partly his dad's fault. Also, Dean's made it clear that he can't be very happy without Sam, with or without his dad. That's why people might see it as less fucked up.

Also, many kids practically raised their younger siblings, particularly children of hard-working, stress-out, poor single mothers. However, the dynamic isn't equal to a parent child relationship. It's more equal to a decade older sibling to a decade younger sibling relationship. You can't judge them the same.

[sobrecogimiento.livejournal.com]

Everything you just said. I cannot put it better.

[becksreid72.livejournal.com]

I...do not like John Winchester. At all. Love JDM, don't like JW. I never have and never will. People have tried to convert me, but...I'm stuck in my ways. I don't want to get into it, let's just say a lot of the issues the boys had kind of hit close to home with me.

That being said, I don't think one is better than the other. I think they would both be very unhealthy relationships. Well, obviously. But it's not the incest thing that turns me off on both pairings, it's just that...I sort of feel like Dean deserves better than Sam, Sam deserves better than Dean and I can't shake the feeling that a relationship between Dean and John would be, on John's side, an attempt to replace Mary. Dean has always been more like Mary and...I don't know. That's just my opinion.

Does that make sense?

[(Anonymous)]

Not OP, but to throw in my two cents. I think by the time Dean was old enough for John to even consider anything, John would have been over Mary. Not over her as in forgotten her or even stopped grieving, but just not so mad with grief anymore that any possible relationship would just be an attempt to replace Mary. The way I see John, Mary soon became hardly more than a beautiful memory, while his sons were the people he actually cared about in the present. So I doubt he'd see in the son he actually loves now, in the present, the wife he lost, what, 15, 20 years ago. He loves Dean way too much to consider him a Mary replacement, in any way. Then again, I absolutely HATE the whole Dean-as-Mary-replacement trope in John/Dean fics, so I might be biased.

Out of curiosity, how is Dean like Mary? Apart from a few superficial things that apply to all Winchesters (stubborn, determined to protect their family to the point of being totally unreasonable/downright stupid) I don't think they have much in common.

[deavar.livejournal.com]

Wait, you think a man molesting his son is a healthy relationship?

[(Anonymous)]

It's the incest police!

Fiction =/= reality, fyi.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, this community. Careful, you don't want to kick the "Your kink is not my kink and that's okay!" wasps nest.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this secret is awful, so I'm not defending it, but I don't think OP was saying it's healthy. Just healthier than Sam/Dean. (Which I disagree with.) Kind of like if I said "a root canal is more pleasant than having your wisdom teeth extracted", that wouldn't mean I was saying root canals are pleasant.

[countess-k.livejournal.com]

I think the reason John's relationship with Dean is portrayed more as an abusive one in the fandom is because of the little bits and pieces about it given to us on the show. In Devil's Trap Dean says that John wouldn't be proud of him for using a bullet to save Sam's life, he's tear him a new one. If that doesn't sound abusive I don't know what is. And that bit about Flagstaff. I know Dean didn't elaborate but his facial expression was quite telling. And of course there's that part with Wee!Dean and the Shtriga. Fandom has a habit of taking a thread and making a whole gown out of it.

Sam on the other hand has shown moments where he clearly wants to knock some sense into Dean about caring less about his family and more about himself. In Season 3 he told Dean to stop worrying about him and start worrying about himself and give a crap that he's dying. Maybe that's why people think if they got together the relationship would be more balanced and less abusive than the John/Dean dynamic where Dean would always be in an obedient position.

[(Anonymous)]

Fandom has a habit of taking a thread and making a whole gown out of it.
Probably right. And taking the bad things is so much more fun than taking the love, the smiles, and the self-sacrifice.

Flagstaff, okay, but "tearing him a new one"? There is such a thing as exaggeration. People regularly say things like "my parents would kill me" or "I'd be grounded for life" even when their parents would never as much as slap them or yell at them. Dean basically just saying that John would be fucking mad at him does not mean that John would actually get physically abusive.

It just generally seems kinda unfair. Of course Sam, as a main character over six seasons, gets more opportunities to grow as a character, to recognize his mistakes, to better himself, than John, who was only around for a couple of episodes and who was never a character in his own right (like Dean and Sam), but only "the father figure" who had a clear function in the story. If John had been around for six seasons, I'm sure he wouldn't be reduced to one or two scenes either.

[(Anonymous)]

In Devil's Trap Dean says that John wouldn't be proud of him for using a bullet to save Sam's life, he's tear him a new one. If that doesn't sound abusive I don't know what is.
"Tearing a new one" is a pretty common idiom in the US for being incredibly angry and shouty. That is not necessarily abuse, at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Could not disagree more. I mean, even if I could get past the power differential of "but John is his father", I don't agree with you on the character dynamics.

And regarding the Bonus secret...I don't think people who feel that way are hypocrites, because I think it's basically unrelated. People who don't see anything wrong with Dean sleeping with Sam are incorrect, regardless of their stance on John/Dean.

(ftr, this is not from an anti-Wincest point of view. I read it. Both pairings mentioned.)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, but if you think a sexual relationship between ANY family members is "normal" or "healthy" you need to get yourself some therapy, QUICKLY. It's one thing to fetishize incest, it's another altogether to think it's healthy.

[ahmnomnom.livejournal.com]

she's not implying it's healthy, just that one would be preferable to the other. incest is still bad ok

[missing-mile-15.livejournal.com]

I think either one would worsen everyone's already screwed up mental states. Parent-child relationships result in a lot of power struggle, and with John's absolute authority stance, it could be extremely damaging. Dean never asks for what he needs, and John wouldn't pick up on the cues. With Sam and Dean, both are way too obsessed and willing to die for each other. I honestly think that if the boys started sleeping together and Bobby died, they'd never get ties with other people. They'd find everything they would need in each other, which is really, really creepy. I'd read either if they were portrayed as unhealthy and as commentary on hunter culture, but never as something romantic and fluffy.

[june-miller.livejournal.com]

This is a sexual fantasy involving two fictional characters. You make it want you want to be. Stop taking this so seriously.

APRICOT SMUDGE

[(Anonymous)]

IN YOUR VEINS

It was put there by the demons.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I love John and I ADORE J/D - but I don't see this as a healthier realtionship for the sheer fact that there could never be equal footing. Dean will do ANYTHING John says - he's too afraid to speak up for his own needs, so I can't see this as healthier than D/S. There's still the equal footing issue, but it is not between a soldier and his commander - or an overbearing man and his eager to please son.

John is a loving and fierce father - and a good man. But he is NOT a good father. This was established by canon. And yes, he is abusive. Neglect is still abuse - and he expected more from his eldest than he was willing or able to give himself. I love John, but he still pisses me off now and again. No, he wasn't physically abusive - but he was abusive (even without realising it) in an emotional, verbal and psychological way. Look at how Dean behaves and look at how Sam reacts to said behavior. Even the way they were raised by one man was vastly different, with the burden being on Dean. This is, unfortunately, canon. So while I love John/Dean fics (with a passion) I can't see them being in a mutually consensual relationship. The odds are stacked against it, character-wise.

*hugs*

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, John/Dean is definitely my favorite Wincest pairing. I find it hotter by far than Sam/Dean and (tbh) I just don't get the appeal of John/Sam or Dean/Mary. But John/Dean? HOLY FUCK. HOT. I blame YED!John's chemistry with Dean when he had him pinned against the wall.

That said, nonnie, there's no chance in hell that John/Dean is going to ever be more healthy than Sam/Dean. Dean's relationship with John was incredibly fucked up and that's why I see John/Dean as being more likely than Sam/Dean but it wouldn't be healthy. It wouldn't even be mutually consenting, not even when Dean is an adult. His relationship with John has too steep a power differential to ever allow true consent on Dean's part.

But it's still hot. Embrace the wrong factor, OP!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not the incest police but I really want to know this. Are any of the ppl who ship John/Dean have kids of their own? As a parent of an 18 year old, the idea of John/Dean squicks me so hard it surprises me people find John/Dean hot. Not trying to judge, just trying to understand. So I'm picturing the John/Dean shippers as not having their own kids. I am probably wrong.