Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-04-25 07:38 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-04-25 07:38 pm
[ SECRET POST #1574 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 173 secrets from Secret Submission Post #225.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ], [ 1 - unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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Yeah, I'd be curious to know what else you expect people who actually are exclusive pedophiles to do? Hell, even people who are NON-exclusive pedophiles? (I mean, even if they're non-exclusive, kids are still their primary focus of attraction by definition. YOU try never, ever thinking about the thing that turns you on the most. I happen to have met a guy [online] who is actually trying to do that, and I don't envy him a second of the struggle. He's told me that his record so far is two months without a single sexual fantasy about a kid. Could YOU do that with YOUR primary attraction?)
Would you rather pedophiles walked around sexually frustrated all the time rather than fapping to kids?
BECAUSE THAT SEEMS LIKE A REALLY GOOD IDEA GUYS.
Oh yeah, and...
Fail more.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 03:52 am (UTC)(link)no subject
Nothing about my comment was remotely meant to be taken as saying that kiddie porn is okay; I'm just tired of people discussing pedophilia as if they think that the people who are actually pedophiles (and it's pretty clear the OP cluelessly thinks anyone who reads loli/shota IS actually a pedophile) can just decide to want to fuck adults instead. Or, apparently, live without even having a sexual fantasy because it morally outrages people.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 03:54 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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The point was the ABSURDITY of the OP's statements when you take them to the logical conclusion.
Also, being attracted to children isn't comparable to being attracted to adults, even if we take my words completely seriously. I've gotten drunkenly groped by other people in bars. Obnoxious, but not traumatic. What if a guy "slips" and drunkenly gropes a kid?
Think that's the same thing?
No, being attracted to someone doesn't automatically mean you're going to rape them. If that were the case, I SURE AS FUCK would not be defending pedophiles. Which I do, because I've met decent people who are pedophiles. But children are WAY MORE fucking vulnerable than an adult. A pedophile needs to be a lot more careful with the way they feel and think around kids than any of the rest of us would ever have to be around other adults.
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Would you rather pedophiles walked around sexually frustrated all the time rather than fapping to kids?
BECAUSE THAT SEEMS LIKE A REALLY GOOD IDEA GUYS.
That was sarcasm?
... Whoa, back the fuck off. You're literally saying two different things honey. This is exactly what I meant -most child sex offenders aren't actual pedophiles. It's not about any attraction to children rather the power.
One moment you say the attraction is going to make them rape kids, another moment you're not saying that. Which is it?
Just. wow.
no subject
I think, given the OP's apparent belief that pedos should basically not masturbate, that they would probably be comically horrified by the idea of pedophiles walking around blue-balled.
most child sex offenders aren't actual pedophiles
The literature is confused as to how many child sex offenders are actually pedophiles.
That's irrelevant anyway, because nothing in my comment has anything to do with non-pedophiliac offenders. I'm not getting drawn into that discussion because it's off-topic.
One moment you say the attraction is going to make them rape kids, another moment you're not saying that.
No, I said their attractions put them at greater risk for harming children. Certainly at greater risk for harming children than an attraction to adults puts other people at risk for harming another adult, because children have far less ability to defend themselves.
Go lurk on a pedophile board for a while. Like, months. Years. Write papers on them! Conduct literature reviews! Count how many guys swear up and down that they'd never go "too far," and that they would never hurt a kid. Count how many of them you think are sincere. Count how many of them you believe.
Then count how many of those guys go to prison for child molestation over the time you spend watching the board. I promise, the number will unsettle you. Sometimes, it will be the guys you believed.
It's a fact that people tend to assume deviant sexualities are automatically out of control. I try not to assume someone is automatically out of control JUST because they are a pedophile, and I'm not actually trying to encourage that mindset with these comments.
But the thing about those boards is this: part of the reason so many of the guys on those boards end up molesting kids is probably that they've spent YEARS on those boards working out justification for it in their minds with other guys. It's not that they just can't control themselves because OMG, they want sex! And they aren't allowed! And then INEVITABLE RAEP.
It's more that they say they would never "go too far," and then they move the goalposts of "too far" a bit farther away. For perfectly logically reasons, they will argue. And then a little farther away. And a little farther. These guys will say to themselves that if they ask a kid, "can I do this?" and the kid says "yes, okay" and seems to like it/has an orgasm, that makes it okay.
Not. remotely. comparable. to a situation between adults, because if an adult says, "yes, okay," they HAVE GIVEN CONSENT, something that a child doesn't have the capacity to do.
A pedophile harming a child IS NOT INEVITABLE. People make CHOICES to do the things they do. But for an adult, with an adult's intelligence and power over a child, it's really goddamn easy. It doesn't have to be malicious on the part of the adult. It often isn't.
no subject
Wait, how does that even work as sarcasm. Was what you meant to say "Pedophiles don't get off on child porn and the child porn doesn't prevent rape."? Because otherwise... wut?
Also, I wasn't referring to the caps sentence. Obviously that's sarcasm. But that wasn't the one I asking about.
Okay, but what do you say about the fact that the child porn often leads them on a slippery slope to commit more vile acts? I've actually witnessed such in my relatives. The daddy in question started off by seeing "porn" and then began eyeing his daughter. For that matter, I don't want to have a debate on whether loli is correct or not, and some people fantasize as the bottom so whatever --what I'm worried about is the complete disregard for the other side of the spectrum where the fapping leads to other things. Rather than "prevent it" Which is still, creepily enough like saying "Guys who watch porn won't go out and rape".
... I am confused by what you're saying here, because you've just described the slippery slope which often does begin from thinking "it's okay to fap to a little more". Pedophiles need help, not encouragement which is what they get from people saying "It's better that they watch porn rather than go onto the streets". Which still smells of rape appropriation and justification.
it's really goddamn easy. It doesn't have to be malicious on the part of the adult. It often isn't.
Um. I might word that better.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 08:52 am (UTC)(link)uh what
how
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Sexual offending is not the inevitable result of pedophilia.
But for fuck's sake, pedophiliac offending is distinguished from non-pedophiliac offending solely because the motivation for the crime is sexual desire and not something else.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)(no subject)
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:16 pm (UTC)(link)"Rape appropriation and justification" what the fuck are you even trying to say with that? How is that appropriation? Are you just spouting off buzzwords because you think they'll strengthen your argument even though you clearly have no idea what they mean? And how is pointing out that yes, pedophiles are influenced to rape in part by the fact that they are attracted to children - not all child molesters, just the ones that are pedophiles - 'justifying' rape?
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(Anonymous) - 2011-04-26 23:20 (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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(Anonymous) - 2011-04-26 23:25 (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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(Anonymous) - 2011-04-26 23:36 (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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Please go back to my first comment. Note that I referred only to thoughts, fantasies and masturbation.
I know the OP WAS talking about porn. But my point was that the logical conclusion to be drawn from their statements is that pedophiles simply shouldn't masturbate (whether to porn or not), because THAT would involve "sexualizing" children. (Note how the OP says kids are "never acceptable fap targets.") I want to know what on earth the OP thinks that would accomplish.
You seem to be under the impression that I think we must provide peds with kiddie smut because they can't be expected to control themselves otherwise. No, I want to know why the OP thinks it is in some way useful to tell pedophiles that they're bad people for masturbating to even thoughts of kids.
Thoughts and masturbation alone are harmless.
But what's a useful outcome of stopping?
... I am confused by what you're saying here, because you've just described the slippery slope which often does begin from thinking "it's okay to fap to a little more".
No, I was talking about self-justifying actual sex acts with children. The slippery slope never begins with private thoughts Big Brother, it begins with, "He won't mind if I put my hand on his leg."
Pedophiles need help
You do realize you can't cure pedophilia, right? It's a hard-wired attraction.
Generally when pedophiles DO get "help" from therapists, it's in the form of identifying ways they might be starting to justify action to themselves, and learning to change/avoid that.
It's not about changing the attraction, because that can't happen. Therefore, it's also not about ceasing to masturbate to what you find attractive, because that's generally a poor way to take responsibility for meeting your own sexual needs.
rape appropriation
What the hell is that?
Um. I might word that better.
I can't. It's the truth.
I don't disagree that molesting a child is a fundamentally hateful act. But then, people in our society perform fundamentally hateful acts all the time without any conscious hatred or attempt to harm.
The subjective experience of most pedophiles is that they adore kids and have no desire to cause harm. The idea that a kid will like the molestation and even be enhanced as a person by it is typically a large part of their self-justifications. It is self-serving in that they perceive it that way because they want to, but it's not malicious.
One of the men who abused me as a child used to call me all the goddamn time on the phone to gush about my hair, my eyes, my voice, my presence in his life in general, how smart I was, what a great future I had, and how much he cherished time with me.
That is not consistent behaviour with a conscious desire to cause harm.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:19 pm (UTC)(link)ilu
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Um... that's exactly the kind of help I was talking about. They need to keep themselves in check.
HowEVER it's still not okay to say "Porn keeps pedophiles off the street. --THAT is what I keep on saying. I still don't know why you can't see how that ties in rape with attraction. That is just begging for people to keep inspecting what the kids are wearing -kids and not only that but you've also just called people who divulge in lolishota pedophiles. Most people here seem to be saying otherwise and you're just proving them wrong.
Also disregard the word appropriation. I mixed up meanings of words. But saying that attraction leads to rape and that unable to direct that attraction will force them to molest kids is... I still don't see how you can't see what's wrong with that. Fyi that's not the truth. It's horrible that that happened to you too but you don't speak for all victims. I've had people try to abuse me and I can safely say that it was the slippery slope factor which led to it.
The subjective experience of most pedophiles is that they adore kids and have no desire to cause harm. The idea that a kid will like the molestation and even be enhanced as a person by it is typically a large part of their self-justifications. It is self-serving in that they perceive it that way because they want to, but it's not malicious.
One of the men who abused me as a child used to call me all the goddamn time on the phone to gush about my hair, my eyes, my voice, my presence in his life in general, how smart I was, what a great future I had, and how much he cherished time with me.
But seriously... I'm nauseous just hearing that.
I'm still not sure what you mean to say by "conscious desire to cause harm". What do you intend to say to pedophiles them? Telling them it's okay to be overly friendly with kids isn't cool, which is what they will do if they don't keep themselves in check.
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Um... that's exactly the kind of help I was talking about.
Gotcha. People generally seem to only say that sort of thing when they think pedophilia is an abuse-acquired fetish that can be cured through talk therapy.
HowEVER it's still not okay to say "Porn keeps pedophiles off the street. --THAT is what I keep on saying.
For some bewildering reason. BECAUSE I'VE NEVER SAID THAT ONCE.
Also, MASTURBATION DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EQUAL PORN. I don't know what world you live in where someone can say, "Okay, in case this was contextually confusing, I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about porn, JUST TALKING 'BOUT FAPPING." And all you hear is, "PR0N!"
I might say that "masturbation keeps pedophiles off the streets" - IF we're talking about someone who is working to keep a high level of self-awareness about their sexuality and is masturbating in that mindset.
I have never said - and never WILL say - that pedophiles (or any other men!) need to be provided with porn, or we can expect them to get all rape-y because they can't control themselves otherwise.
but you've also just called people who divulge in lolishota pedophiles.
Okay, actually just noticed this line on the second attempt at this comment.
What the actual fuck. I have no idea where you're getting this from.
ut saying that attraction leads to rape and that unable to direct that attraction will force them to molest kids is... I still don't see how you can't see what's wrong with that.
I don't think attraction leads to rape. As I've said.
I think that what leads to rape, in this case, is usually an attraction PLUS the long cognitive process of self-justifying acting on that attraction.
The former alone doesn't necessarily lead to anything.
But the latter wouldn't exist without the former, and I don't think it's perpetuating rape culture to say so.
I don't personally believe porn has ANYTHING to do with it. Not that I have any solid empirical evidence to back me up, but the people who believe that watching porn inevitably leads to sexual violence don't have solid empirical evidence either.
I've had people try to abuse me and I can safely say that it was the slippery slope factor which led to it.
See, when I was talking about a slippery slope, I never ONCE meant porn.
But you seem to here. I feel like your argument is the contradictory one. I mean, you've stated you're horrified by the idea that attraction leads to rape. Okay. For obvious reasons. But you seem okay with arguing that PORN leads to rape.
What is porn except a representation of attraction and fantasy? Your position doesn't make any sense. If people can control their actions before watching porn, they should be able to afterward, too.
But seriously... I'm nauseous just hearing that.
Well, I wasn't. I mean, I dreaded time with him. But I ate up the praise. It meant that someone - anyone! - liked me. Because there was no mistaking his sincerity.
I think that's what you're not grasping when you say:
I'm still not sure what you mean to say by "conscious desire to cause harm".
What's confusing about that?
If I could just find this book I own, I could quote you a sadistic, sociopathic pedophile describing (with great self-satisfaction) how he started abusing an infant with the eventual intention of breaking her mind and spirit and making her his "perfect sex slave."
THAT'S a conscious desire to cause harm. Most pedophiles aren't actually like that.
Compare this with the pedophiles on the message boards who worry about the kids they're molesting having trouble with their homework, fights with their parents, grief over losing their grandparents, etc. They DON'T want to cause harm; self-servingly, they have therefore managed to convince themselves that their actions are not harmful.
If you INTEND to cause harm, you don't bother to justify an action to yourself as harmless. If you justify it to yourself as harmless, it's probably because you don't want to cause harm.
What do you intend to say to pedophiles them?
"You're wrong," strikes me as an option.
(no subject)
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 05:01 am (UTC)(link)that said, i absolutely do not believe people who fap to loli and shota are automatically likely to molest children. plenty of people imagine themselves as the victim, and even if they weren't that doesn't mean they're interested in real children at all. i do think there might be some cause for concern if they are interested in real children, though, because of the aforementioned studies that have been done showing that it can lead them to normalize it and then act on their urges. although, to be fair, i don't know if there was any sort of control used to find out how much of that was just the fapping or the interaction with child molesters who encouraged them to do it because it's really okay, the kids want it or some such shit.
no subject
This is a thing that actually happens? LOL. Well, thank you, and sometimes disagreeing is good. Sometimes you don't know what you really think until a disagreement breaks out.
there have been studies done showing that constantly thinking about and fapping to children can enhance the chances of a pedophile losing control and actually doing it
Studies done on the effects of exposure to porn on rates of sexual offenses in general (i.e. rape, child molestation, etc.) actually show completely paradoxical correlations, from what I've seen. (Internet access goes up as sex offenses go down, but sex offenses go up the more people who own a computer, apparently. WHAT. How is this even mathematically a thing.)
But now we're getting into a much larger argument about what sort of effect porn has on people, and that's a debate that remains totally unresolved. Nobody can claim anything about it with total certainty at this point, and anyone who says their side is unquestionably the right one (and here's the studies to prove it) is full of shit and cherry-picking no matter what side they're arguing.
(Note: I don't mean you.)
Also, the specific studies you mention were probably only done on clinical/correctional populations. Biased and whatnot, yes?
But honestly, that wasn't my actual concern. I'm much more bothered by this, "your sexuality is wrong, NOW STOP IT," thing I'm getting from the OP. I mean, they aren't just talking about disliking loli/shota as a kink (although I suppose they meant to); "sexualizing children" doesn't stop at just the porn, and they are talking about people they obviously think are genuine pedophiles (whether they are or not).
"If you were a better person, you'd just STOP being attracted to kids," is the message I got from the OP, and it's such a terribly useless and (I'd say) harmful one. It's exactly that kind of thing that makes people who are pedophiles everything from "too scared of judgment to seek any therapy" to, "intensely resentful and taking up volunteering with kids just to throw you the bird."
Telling people how much they suck for what they're attracted to accomplishes exactly nothing.
to be fair, i don't know if there was any sort of control used to find out how much of that was just the fapping or the interaction with child molesters who encouraged them to do it because it's really okay, the kids want it or some such shit
Oh, I personally think the latter has a LOT to do with it. Observational studies on those sorts of interactions between pedophiles all tentatively reach similar conclusions about the effects of that sort of group encouragement on offenses/effectiveness of sex offender treatment/etc. But obviously, it's impossible to "prove."
I recently wrote a paper (just for a class, no big thing) comparing guys on pedophile boards to a group of 30 pedophiles who are NOT members of those sorts of things, and the differences in the way they thought about adult/child sex and child porn were HUGE. On child porn specifically, the group of 30 I looked at considered porn a permanent substitute that helped them to remain in control. The guys on the boards saw kiddie porn as (often resented) temporary relief measures.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 02:48 pm (UTC)(link). . . aaand then continuing to do just that in your last two paragraphs, only in the light YOU want to to be shown in.
I'm much more bothered by this, "your sexuality is wrong, NOW STOP IT," thing I'm getting from the OP.
I know pedophiles. I know they suffer deeply and did not ask to be attracted to what they are, and are usually victims of past abuse themselves. But? "these are bad/wrong urges"? Is actually a great mindset for them to have. It is wrong, and yes they should stop it.
This flabbergasts me: "intensely resentful and taking up volunteering with kids just to throw you the bird."
There is NO JUSTIFICATION for putting children in harms way. "Boo hoo you were mean to me so I'm going to make it way easier for me to mentally scar a child." What. If you know of any pedophile who is willingly spending time with children just to ~throw society a bird~ you have an obligation to report that pedophile and get them out of that environment for the safety of the children, and for the future of that pedophile.
This isn't just sexuality, this isn't breaking ~hetero-normatives~, it's damage. Pedophiles are damaged. They usually need a LOT of help and self control to get through their life without hurting someone, and indulging in their injury is not how most of them go about doing it successfully.
Seriously, if your friend swore off meat forever, wouldn't you be worried about their vow if they started searching out meat preparation shows? Started book marking recipes? You move AWAY from temptation, not sit there inches away from it with your dick in your hand.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)But? "these are bad/wrong urges"? Is actually a great mindset for them to have. It is wrong, and yes they should stop it.
This is a ridiculous thing to say. They can't just 'stop it' - they can prevent themselves from hurting children and avoid children, but they can't just stop having a sexual attraction to them. And it's not the attraction itself that is bad and wrong, it's the damage they would inflict by acting on that attraction. It's a subtle but important difference, and I don't see how it helps anyone to go "you are a horrible evil person for having these urges and unless you stop having them you always will be." That just drives them out to seek help and support from people that are going to encourage them to harm children.
no subject
. . . aaand then continuing to do just that in your last two paragraphs, only in the light YOU want to to be shown in.
You misunderstood me here, I think. When I said the above, I was referring to the arguments about whether or not porn is addictive, whether or not it increases the rates of sexual violence, etc.
My last two paragraphs are about the justifications and excuses exchanged between pedophiles on message boards vs. guys who are not engaged in that sort of thing. The porn thing is just one example of how these interactions seem to influence how pedophiles FEEL about their pedophilia. I see that I probably should have used another example, since that was confusing in the context of this discussion.
(Are the guys who don't engage in those interactions and who believe porn helps them control themselves actually RIGHT? At the moment, I don't think we know. I DO think it's interesting that they approach porn that way, as opposed to the message board guys, who don't see any need to "control" themselves to begin with.)
But? "these are bad/wrong urges"? Is actually a great mindset for them to have. It is wrong, and yes they should stop it.
...
Except that they, um, can't. You can't cure pedophilia.
Just. what.
...Okay I see the other anon has covered everything I would have said. So, yeah, THAT. *points up*
If you know of any pedophile who is willingly spending time with children just to ~throw society a bird~ you have an obligation to report that pedophile and get them out of that environment for the safety of the children, and for the future of that pedophile.
Anonymous pedo on the intarwebs d00d, what the fuck do you expect me to do? I'm not Perverted Justice.
You move AWAY from temptation, not sit there inches away from it with your dick in your hand.
I would generally agree, but I would mainly consider staying away from risky situations with kids to be the main thing to focus on. I'm not convinced that avoiding porn is a necessity for any given person (although it may be for some with more addictive personalities). I don't have any PROOF for how I, personally, feel about that, so we may just have to agree to disagree.
But then, if fantasizing about, and watching porn of, skeevy shit makes you dangerous despite any clear desire not to be, then I'm really goddamn dangerous.
Which I doubt.