fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1766 ]

[ SECRET POST #1766 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1766 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03. [repeat]

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05. [repeat]

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

__________________________________________________

11.

__________________________________________________

12.

__________________________________________________

13. [repeat]

__________________________________________________

14.

__________________________________________________

15.

__________________________________________________

16.

__________________________________________________

17.

__________________________________________________

18. [repeat]

__________________________________________________

19.

__________________________________________________

20.

__________________________________________________

21.

__________________________________________________

22.

__________________________________________________

23.

__________________________________________________

24.

__________________________________________________

25.

__________________________________________________

26.

__________________________________________________

27.

__________________________________________________

28.

__________________________________________________

29.

__________________________________________________

30.

__________________________________________________

31.

__________________________________________________

32.

__________________________________________________

33.

__________________________________________________

34.

__________________________________________________

35.

__________________________________________________

36.

__________________________________________________

37.

__________________________________________________

38.

__________________________________________________

39.

__________________________________________________

40.

__________________________________________________

41.

__________________________________________________

42.

[was accidentally labeled a repeat before]

__________________________________________________

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #252.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

(Don't cite Susan at me, a biological link was never implied. Don't cite 9 at me, it's not canon as far as I'm concerned.)

Hahahahahahaha. Oh wow. This screams of 'it doesn't fit in with what I believe is canon, so it's not real, it never happened, lalalalala I can't hear yooooou!'.

Four and Romana. Eight and Grace. Ten and everyone he could lay eyes on. Eleven and River. Is it such a bad thing for someone whose lived so long to have an interest in romance, love, and even sex? He doesn't have to remain ~untouchable~ just because he's supposedly all-powerful and super smart.

That's exactly what I was thinking. "As far as I'm concerned" automatically denotes "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Is it such a bad thing for someone whose lived so long to have an interest in romance, love, and even sex? He doesn't have to remain ~untouchable~ just because he's supposedly all-powerful and super smart.

FREAKING THIS. Jeez, people. Falling in love or having sex isn't going to ruin his character.

But it did.

More to the point, why does what is ostensibly a children's program HAVE to include romance? What happened to stories being made out of adventure, sci-fi and drama?

It doesn't HAVE to include romance. But if, as you say, the Doctor has never had a romancee/been a romantic figur in the past, what's wrong with him having one/being one now? Cuz going on what you're saying, a very small portion of DW history has involved romantic relationships, specifically the newer portion. Going on what you've said, it's a new side of the Doctor that has never been shown before. What's wrong with showing that? I agree that the way his relationships end up isn't always great but it's not always the same old story. So far in NuWho, we've had a reciprocated romance, a one-sided relationship that made a character realize her worth, a fierce friendship that helped the Doctor acknowledge his flaws, and a completely rejected crush that eventually ends in a couple in the TARDIS with the Doctor. So many different types of relationships.

And the discussion about DW being a children's program has been had so many times that there's nothing left to say. DW isn't a children's program. Judging by how many fans are adults, I'd say it's decidedly a family program.

The fact that he's never been a romantic figure is the reason I have a problem with him being one now. I don't really object to romance in Who alltogether; Jo left to be with her husband, Ian and Barbara might as well have been married, etc. There are so many problems making the Doctor romantic that I can't list them all but I'll try;

- lose the wizard/mentor archetype, which immediately eliminates the prospect of character development where he assists companions in their learning about the universe, morals, etc

- lose the prospect of character development where companions disagree with him and assert it (Jamie commenting on the Doctor's morality, Donna not taking any shit from him)

- get rid of agency from companions in love with him. Rose no longer had ambition outside of the Doctor, River had no life outside of the Doctor, poor Martha had no agency outside of the Doctor till she decided to leave him, which was a waste of a character opportunity considering she was a doctor herself and could have learnt so much had they not focused on her crush so much

- typecast actors playing the doctor to appeal to a very narrow view of the female gaze- young, athletic, hot

- Family program still means something you can show to children. Sort of related, but I find it very sad that the Doctor is no longer for a lot of fans someone they'd want to learn from and be friends with but someone they want to bone

- Immediate problem when we start to explore the Doctor's sexuality. Is he heterosexual, and is he turned on by standard Western tropes of sexuality that are very limiting? (so far we've seen him attracted to fair western women who he exerts a lot of authority over). That turns the doctor in to a Man, not an Alien with alien tastes and so forth, and frankly I don't want to have to YET AGAIN deal with the male gaze being applied in what is escapism for me. Not to mention the problems with his authority and the very inequal relationships that have been portrayed so far.

I don't expect anyone to respond to these, they're just some of the reasons I don't like a sexual doctor.

I agree with a lot of this, particularly regarding the mentor archetype, and all parts of your last point.

I find that introducing romance for the Doctor into the story mostly acts to make the show less interesting, and the character less alien. It feels as if someone sat down and said "we need to write romance in because it's what modern TV audiences - or fandoms - want to see", rather than something born from the character.

And this is from someone who wants to bone Matt Smith's Doctor quite a lot, incidentally. :D

Rose never had any ambition to begin with. That's the whole reason the Doctor was so enticing for her. He gave her something to be passionate about (i.e seeing/saving the universe. Her life had no direction in the beginning.

Martha realizing that she had to tell the Doctor to go fuck himself was the point of her arc. She pined and pined and didn't realize that she was better than that until she actually proved that she was. She got her chance to see how amazing she was in The Year That Never Was and she came out better.

Nine wasn't a romantic interest for Rose at all. That was just Ten. Nine was like a big brother/silly uncle to Rose. So it's only barely weighted on the side of "Doctor's companions always fall in love with him." Rose and Nine and Donna and Ten weren't romantic/sexual relationships at all. There was Ten/Rose, one-sided Ten/Martha, and one-sided Eleven/Amy which ended in a flash.

It's already been shown that the Doctor isn't confined to simply human standards of beauty. Nine flirts with Jade and with Capt. Jack. Just because he's shown being attracted to human women doesn't mean that's the limit of his sexuality. You can be pan and still date mostly one sex/gender. Doesn't mean you aren't pan. And it's already been pointed out that "humans look Time Lord" so it's not the Doctor simply falling for human women; human women happen to look like Time Lords, of which there are no more LOL. So the Doctor can still be an alien and a man; a Time Lord man who's attracted to women who look like women of his own alien race.

I'll agree with you on the points about unequal relationships though. That's why Donna is my favorite companion and why I find Eleven/Amy so squicky.

I don't think him having a romantic side necessarily has to do any of those things to him. You can be unhappy with the way his relationships are written (and you wouldn't be without reason) but dismissing the possibility of that side of his character because two people screwed it up in their own interpretations seems a bit premature. I'm positive it can be done well and frankly, S6 was the only season in which I felt the romantic side of things dominated the show, which is why I didn't like it. Previous seasons had romance but they still remembered to include the jaunts and aliens that I love about DW.

The fact that he's never been a romantic figure is the reason I have a problem with him being one now.

This. It feels so jarring. And retconning some of his old relationships into romances [coughSarahJanecough] isn't helping. And before someone mentions Grace: He had just regenerated, he always acts a little weird.

typecast actors playing the doctor to appeal to a very narrow view of the female gaze- young, athletic, hot

THIS.
The athletic thing doesn't bother me so much--as has been said, "So much running!" But the young and attractive thing... I'd love to see them cast an older actor, who might not be conventionally attractive (granted, some argue Matt Smith qualifies).

Immediate problem when we start to explore the Doctor's sexuality. Is he heterosexual [...]

This is a very good point. Would they even have the balls to have the Doctor have a long term relationship with even a conventionally attractive human(oid) man, much less someone--or some THING--that doesn't even register as humanoid? Consider they won't even give him an alien companion, I'm not holding my breath.

Oh god, don't get me started on Sarah Jane! I adore her, and I adore Elisabeth Sladen, and I was just so mad when they decided to write her as a lonely old woman pining for the Doctor.

As I'm sure 70's Sarah Jane would paraphrase the Doctor; what unmitigated balderdash.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-11-04 14:38 (UTC) - Expand

I don't know what anon's reasoning is, but for me, almost none of the romantic relationships involving the Doctor we've been shown have felt entirely realistic or satisfactory. I could never really buy them (except for the Girl in the Fireplace).

I don't agree with anon that the Doctor should necessarily remain entirely asexual; I just think keeping him that way would have been better than substandard romances, particularly romances where there is such a massive power difference. As anon said, 900+ year old Time Lord, with 20 year old Earthling... yuck. Maybe I don't quite buy that Doctor because I don't want to buy that Doctor. If the romance was with more of an equal, another alien with a long lifespan and similar intelligence, I might not find it as grating.

None of this spoils my enjoyment of the show too very much, because I largely just ignore the bits I don't like with Doctor Who, old or new. But if they'd stop putting so much attention on the romance, and put more back into the adventure, sci-fi and drama, I think it'd make the show stronger.

I like you. I agree.

Everyone bought The Girl in the Fireplace but I found that boring and contrived. There was literally nothing there. The Doctor falls for Reinette in two seconds. It was ridiculous. Not to mention the "Girl grows up in love with imaginary friend" trope. Same reason I didn't like the Eleven/Amy thing. But that's neither here nor there.

As anon said, 900+ year old Time Lord, with 20 year old Earthling... yuck.

I get the "yuck" but at the same time, I've always wondered how old the Doctor would be in human years. Like, what's the equivalent? How long do Time Lords live? Where would he be in his human time line? That's the thing, along with how little we know about his family, that keeps me from saying it could never be OK. I will qualify that by saying that equality in a relationship matters. For instance, if the Doctor/Donna was ever to be a romantic thing, it wouldn't bother me at all. She was more than a match for him LOL.

But if they'd stop putting so much attention on the romance, and put more back into the adventure, sci-fi and drama, I think it'd make the show stronger.

I definitely agree. I think it was at an alright (although NOT perfect) level during S1 and even S2. The romance has really taken over now and it's drawing away from the sci-fi jaunt aspect.

Kind of insulting to the 20 year old Earthling. Now we humans aren't capable of making decisions for ourselves?

As anon said, 900+ year old Time Lord, with 20 year old Earthling... yuck.

I don't understand this mentality. Time Lords live longer, so they probably take a longer time to mature. A human at 20 is not what a Time Lord would be at 20, because humans mature faster due to their shorter lifespan.

What is wrong about two consenting adults, each a member of a compatible species, being together? Susan fell in love with a human. It isn't unprecedented.

Time Lords live longer, so they probably take a longer time to mature. A human at 20 is not what a Time Lord would be at 20, because humans mature faster due to their shorter lifespan.

Is there any evidence in the canon for this theory? Because to me it just sounds like an attempt at rationalizing away a massive, massive power difference.

(no subject)

criedtherabbit.livejournal.com - 2011-11-06 20:08 (UTC) - Expand

More to the point, why does what is ostensibly a children's program HAVE to include romance? What happened to stories being made out of adventure, sci-fi and drama?

This. So, so, so much this.

"More to the point, why does what is ostensibly a children's program HAVE to include romance? What happened to stories being made out of adventure, sci-fi and drama?"

IAWTC

More to the point, why does what is ostensibly a children's program HAVE to include romance? What happened to stories being made out of adventure, sci-fi and drama?

Because any good story should deal with the overarching themes of the human experience, whether or not is it a "children's" story. You may as well ask why any story deals with loss, death, growing up, etc. These are the experiences that inform existence for the majority of the population. When you dress down adventure and science-fiction stories, you'll find that they feature the same architecture (as in, archetypal themes) that held up the primordial stories people told when language was new.

Four and Romana were never romantically involved, what you're reading into is Tom Baker and Lalla Ward's off screen romance that failed tragically. By 'nine' I meant 'eight' (whoops) and that telemovie certainly didn't give Dr Who a new lease of life.

Ten and Eleve's "romances" were written awfully. I prefer to think of them as never happening, to be quite honest, rather than excuse the shoddy work of two writers having a battle as to who can make the "best" Doctor romance. How on earth did the romance lend anything to Rose's character? Or Martha's? Or even the godawful River Song who was so inconsistent and cringeworthy even when she wasn't a psychopath who killed for no good reason (something the Doctor has traditionally never stood for)

Your 'hahaha oh wow' doesn't win you any points because I quite happily like to pretend something never happened rather than lend legitimacy to a writer's pissing contest.

Ignoring canon because you don't agree with it is find if you're writing fic/labeling it AU. But to just say it's NOT canon because you don't agree with it? Canon doesn't work that way.

Do the writers suck at writing believable romances involving the Doctor? Abso-fucking-lutely. I will completely agree with you on that. But to say someone 'should stay asexual' when they were never proven to be asexual (and fathered a child, which doesn't mean anything w/regards to sexuality one way or another, but certainly can't be erased from view either) just because the writers suck is kind of pointless.

That's like saying romance novels shouldn't have couples in them if the writer sucks, or moves shouldn't get happy endings because the writers dropped so many plot holes along the way that the Titanic probably fell into one.

?? I said I preferred not to accept it, though I have long grudgingly accepted that this is what they choose Dr Who to be. I know how canon works, I'd just rather pick and choose what I consume.

The Doctor never fathered a child; there's no biological link asserted between him and Susan. I also said he SHOULD have (not that he IS) been asexual from the start because a teacher/mentor/wizard archetype is so much more interesting than an Everyhero (young, fit, sexy)... bring back the Pertwees and the Troughtons because it allows so much more scope for character development beyond 'teenage girl new to the universe has a crush' (or... that hot mess River Song was)

And that's a poor analogy; romance novels include couples by definition of the genre. Romance has never really been a staple of action/sci-fi/educational programs.

Romance has never really been a staple of action/sci-fi/educational programs.

Oh if only. I have yet to be able to just sit and watch things blow up without a romance plot shoved in there.

-James Bond
-Indiana Jones
-every Bruce Willis movie ever made
-even my GI Joes didn't escape the romance!

Also, probably not the best source, but better than some;

"The Doctor consistently maintained that Susan was his biological granddaughter — or at the very least that it was likely, because he had a family in the sense that humans understood."

Sauce. (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Susan_Campbell)

As a genre, it has never been a staple. An action film without romance is still an action film. More to the point, the love storylines are never the major storylines, unlike the wedding of River Song, Rose's crush being focused on to the point she was effectively cast as the One True Companion, etc etc (or even without the Doctor, the Epic Romance of Rory and Amy which wasn't That Epic At All).

That source contradicts itself, really... "or at the very least it was likely". That's insertion, not fact, not to mention Who canon contradicts itself with how Time Lords are made.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-11-04 01:20 (UTC) - Expand

The Doctor never fathered a child

He's stated he's been a father. I suppose you could argue he adopted, but that feels a bit like hearing hoof prints and looking for zebras instead of horses.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only