[ SECRET POST #2148 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2148 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 080 secrets from Secret Submission Post #307.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - doing a bit of troll-weeding ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

So I recently read this article ->http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/christmas-canceled-santa-monica-park-205100437.html

As an atheist I personally don't care if people put up nativity scenes or not. Historically Christ wasn't technically born on Christmas, and it was just a way to get rid of Pagan festivals, but it's so part of the holiday now it'd be silly to get rid of it.

However, I'm siding with the courts. The park is public property and not everyone who uses it believes in Christ.

Thoughts?

And so did my spelling LOL*SPEECH

[(Anonymous)]

^

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

Seeing how the church would raise a stink if any other religion dared to put up a display, I agree. No one should have their religion on display in a public park.

An aside... I fucking hate the term "war on Christmas". No, it's fucking not. It's not even close.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[anonymouslyyours]

I wish there was a war on Christmas. They started playing carols in August here. It makes me root for the Grinch.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

'It's a sad, sad commentary on the attitudes of the day that a nearly 60-year-old Christmas tradition is now having to hunt for a home, something like our savior had to hunt for a place to be born because the world was not interested," said Hunter Jameson, the head of the nonprofit Santa Monica Nativity Scene Committee in an interview with the Daily Mail.

Ugggggggggh, way to belittle the actual trials and sacrifices your own damn savior, Hunter Jameson.

My way of thinking about is this: you have the right to freely exercise your religion (within bounds). However, nativity scenes are not a fundamental part of the Christian religion: they're kitschy holdovers from a time when people couldn't read and had to have everything explained to them in pictures, and a way to get kids interested and involved. Which is something you should be doing in church, not something you have a right to do on public land.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, and w/r/t speech: the Constitution says the government can't infringe on your right to speak, but that doesn't mean it has to give you a platform to do it on. And a public space, maintained by public dollars, watched over by the police, who're probably going to be required to investigate should it be vandalized again, is pretty much giving you that platform. So, saying "Christianity is the one and true religion, check out our savior!" totally cool; expecting a public park to give you space to say that, not so much.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

"'It's a sad, sad commentary on the attitudes of the day that a nearly 60-year-old Christmas tradition is now having to hunt for a home, something like our savior had to hunt for a place to be born because the world was not interested,"

Ahahahahaha that's the best.

This is dumb. According to the article the Christians just didn't like it when the atheist put up atheist signs in the part next to their Nativity scenes, then the community went nuts and couldn't handle the affair like adults so the judge came down with a "if you can't play nicely in the park nobody plays in the park" ruling.

I mean I agree that it's public property and not everyone who uses it is Christian, but at the same time if they all could just be friendly and respect each other there wouldn't be an issue. Let the atheist put up his signs, let the Christians put up theirs, let the Jews and the Hindus and whoever else put up whatever they want.

In conclusion, Christians are the drama queens of religion. I especially liked the "Christmas is cancelled" title. Goes nicely with the ridiculous "war on Christianity" nonsense.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

I'm going to have to agree with you. I'm not a fan of religious or political displays on public property because it is just that: public. Not everyone has the same beliefs, and by putting up said display, one is either ignoring other people's beliefs and/or insinuating that one belief system is superior to another. Not allowing any displays like the nativity scene in the article to be set up in the park at all allows the public land to be neutral ground, which is exactly what it should be, in my opinion. Private land, on the other hand, is entirely different. Setting up a nativity display or a political sign on one's private property doesn't bother me in the slightest unless what it has to say is actively harmful to someone else.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

what's the problem with implying one religion is superior? i get that it's an asshole thing to do but why should the courts be dictating whether or not something should be allowed based on how "nice" it is? there are far worse things people are implying or outright stating that are entirely protected by law.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[intrigueing]

I'm baffled that anyone gets upset about this stuff, on either side. Just WHAT. HOW. WHY. WHERE DO YOU GET THE ENERGY TO GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THIS. HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATE CONGRESS IS IN LATELY?????

Also "speach" made me think of a church giving away free sparkling peach punch, for some reason. What is my brain.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[inkdust]

Frankly that would be delicious.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a Christian, and I'm agreeing with the courts.

Jesus once told people off for making a big deal of being religious in public ("When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get." (Matthew 6:5)), and the whole idea of putting nativity (or other religious displays) on public land just feels like that to me.

Now, if the church had put it on private property, I wouldn't mind so much...

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[elaminator]

Good on you for quoting from the Bible. I agree 100%.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[anonymouslyyours]

Atheist in a crazy religious small town in Texas that does not allow nativity scenes on public property. Mostly because we have eleven different churches with their own nativity scenes and a couple without nativity scenes so there's a tense truce that they'll all keep their baby Jesuses to themselves. All we have is lights, non-denominational decorations such as light displays of snowflakes and candles, and something we've decided to call a "winter tree" that everyone is allowed to toss shit on as long as it isn't vulgar or in our rival town's team colors (I did say I lived in Texas). Mostly everyone sticks to yellow ribbons for the veterans and family pictures.

So... GTFO public property baby Jesus thank you very much.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[diet_poison]

ughhhh inter-church drama

but it reminds me of this which I was showing a friend earlier today and is still one of my favorite Internet images: http://donstuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/all-dogs-go-to-heaven.jpg?w=500

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[terabient]

this reminds me of that time my mom put up a nativity scene in our front yard and somebody replaced the baby Jesus with a hot dog

i just felt like sharing that

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[inkdust]

I lol'ed.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

i think this was ruled poorly. i'm of the opinion that the first amendment protects the church here, and that there's nothing wrong with "advertising" a religion - or a lack thereof - in the public eye. public property or not, people have the right to practice and support what they believe, even if not everybody believes in it. by not protecting the church's right here the court is more or less saying it is not legal to publicly display your beliefs, which is kind of baffling to me.

that being said, i don't oppose the atheist ~installment either. i think they both have an equal right to be placed there. this whole fiasco is really frustrating for me, even as an atheist.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

No one was saying the church couldn't advertise their religion in public. In fact, they'd been doing so for years. It was only when a different belief was displayed alongside it that the church pitched a fit. A judge then decided that unmanned displays would not be allowed in the park. That is not to say that any religion cannot advertise there - but only that they can't put up a monument and leave it.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[cassandraoftroy]

Explain to me how the government refusing to provide free access to a publicly-maintained space for a particular religion to advertise and advocate their beliefs in any way violates the right to free exercise?

First Amendment violations would include passing laws forbidding churches from setting up nativity displays on their own, church-owned property, or from buying billboard space and displaying religious messages. Freedom of religion does not include being given free advertising space subsidized by the government.

Especially given that it seems the Christian group was fine until they tried to prevent other groups with differing messages from also displaying their beliefs, they really don't have a leg to stand on from the "religious persecution" angle. But even if it had just been a matter of, "are city governments Constitutionally obligated to provide a free platform for religious displays," an answer of "No" would not have been a violation of anyone's First Amendment rights. Allowing someone to speak without legal penalty =/= providing them with free ad space.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

It was a long standing tradition to do so. However, when the atheists started putting up their own signs the church cried foul. The courts said -no one- could put up unmanned displays, period, as everyone refused to act like adults.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

Trouble is from what I could see there the atheist signs basically attacked other beliefs. A nativity only displays one. That's a big difference.

I've only come upon this type of Atheism recently. I mean the actively campaigning against religion type. I pretty much consider myself an atheist but I don't feel the need to bitch about religion.

The judge probably made the only decision they could but I'd consider the Atheist guy a bigger loser for intentionally starting shit.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

You could be me. I'm an Atheist and only recently have I experienced any sort of backlash for it because there's a growing trend of Atheists attacking believers (of anything). Until a couple years ago, every Atheist I've ever known or known of has had a very respectful attitude towards religion in general and religious people in particular.

Re: Christian Free speach VS Atheist free speach-Both lost

[(Anonymous)]

I'm in favour of not using public places as religious advertisement. If they want to hold an event, sure go ahead with all the usual applications. It'll be over with in a day, enjoy your celebration.

but nativity scenes are pretty permanent advertisements. leave the poor park alone

Undecided

[(Anonymous)]

Personally, I don't see the problem with using public grounds for nativity scenes if the grounds aren't in use for something else and the scene doesn't drastically limit public use of the park. Was it a playground or a picnic area? Or is it a small park and the scene was taking up a disproportionate amount of space? Where I live, most of the space in parks is off-limits for pretty much everything unless you get a permit, which includes an application and review process and also a fee, so the annual nativity scene isn't an issue. In the case of this article, I'd need to know a lot more about the situation to make a decision, but based on the information given I'd have to side with the church. Now if it were a case of the city only having ever granted permission to that church and specifically denied permission to any other groups who sought to use the grounds for religious promotion (or not, in the case of atheism), then I'd agree with the judge's ruling.